So when Trump tries to overthrow the largest government of the free world it takes 4 years for his trial to start, but when Biden backs his military allies it takes less than a month?
Let’s not compare apples to oranges.
Biden isn’t less deserving of scrutiny because he is the better president. He is backing a genocide, that should be put to him.
Will anything happen? No, because America doesn’t have justice left in stock.
US diplomatic efforts have been consistently pressuring Israel to restrain their actions. What people don’t get, and what makes that statement seem insane to you, is that our ability to influence Israel is entirely dependent on our public support and, even so, is severely limited.
Let’s say we go hard against Israel, cut off their access to US weapons manufacturing, and cut off their aid. Suddenly one of the three great regional powers in the Middle East is up for grabs and Russia eagerly steps into the void. Now Russia has two of the three in their orbit, the other being Iran. Iran happens to be the best regional ally of the Palestinians, but Russia will put an immediate end to that. Now the situation for the Palestinians is even worse, unless you think the US is going to threaten military intervention against Israel.
Biden has said some braindead shit on the topic, like taking this moment to call himself a Zionist, but the actions his administration have actually taken have been the best available in a very bad situation. The current government of Israel is basically their version of MAGA. They are going to do what they are going to do, and there is nothing we can do to stop it, short of putting boots on the ground ourselves. (Even if we wanted to, we are historically shit at these kinds of actions.). The best we can do is advise restraint and try to keep the conflict from becoming regional. We did manage to keep Israel from doing a major strike on Lebanon that could easily have sparked a much broader conflict.
America let itself get to this point, putting your hands up complaining that you don’t have many options isn’t acceptable when you publicly defend and prop up a genocidal regime.
No fucking kidding, but I wasn’t complaining. You clearly think virtue signaling about how much you care about the Palestinians is more important than being the adult in the room and actually doing what’s in their best interests and the interests of a region that could very easily fall into a much bigger conflict.
Biden is POTUS, not a social media talking head. If he were to verbally condemn Israel, it would make the situation worse, not better. As Israel’s friend, we have a seat at the table and a chance to influence things. As Israel’s critic, we are left with terrible to no options. I’m glad we don’t have a president who craves social media likes over all else.
Your influence isn’t doing shit, typical American shite pompous bullshit leader of the free world but shies away from the difficult conversation because even if you recognize it is the right thing you don’t want to the consequences.
America put all these pieces on the board and is now acting like they can’t do anything but give stern commentary.
I don’t crave social media likes, I’d love to see less dead children even if it means POTUS has to answer some tough questions. Where does the buck stop again?
Your influence isn’t doing shit,
The fact that Israel and Lebanon aren’t at war right now says you are wrong.
American shite pompous bullshit leader of the free world but shies away from the difficult conversation
It’s been widely reported that Biden and netanyahu have had the difficult conversations, but maybe you are talking to me. I’m certainly trying, but you sure do make it difficult.
America put all these pieces on the board
LOL. These pieces were on the board long before America even existed as a country. Even so, this isn’t a “America bad” conversation, we are discussing the Biden administration’s handling of the current crisis. I give America a large part of the blame too BTW, I just don’t need to signal it in every conversation.
I’d love to see less dead children even if it means POTUS has to answer some tough questions.
What questions? All I see from you are rants. I’m all for tough questions, and I’m hardly a fan of Biden.
Where does the buck stop again?
Which buck? If we are talking about the genocide, then I’d send the bill to the government perpetrating it and Hamas. Hamas’s attack on Israel was intended to provoke exactly the response it’s getting from the far right wing government that Israel elected. Even now, Hamas is continuing to provoke Israel to ensure that it keeps happening. Israel isn’t going to back off, and Hamas will continue using their response to drive recruitment. Is the US supposed to talk them out of it, or are we supposed to put boots on the ground to stop it? Either one would have about the same level of success.
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He’s actually passed a lot of protectionist policies which are fairly new in terms of how expansive they are.
He has 100% done more for Americans than Trump and with more grace and poise.
I really doubt that, as I’m not american. Trump was hitting it out of the park for americans, literally stomping my head of state in negotiations. admittedly trudeau isn’t all that bright. anyways, protectionist policies aren’t a good idea. Setting up a situation protectionism isn’t needed is better. Trump forced trudeau into allowing importation of american milk to canada, it used to be a given not.
He did nothing of the sort. Trump forcing Trudeau to let American milk into Canada isn’t much of a win for Americans. You sound uneducated on current events.
Ah here you clearly have a viewpoint set and that’s not going to change.
The policies Trump was putting in place were also protectionist, just poorly so. He also floundered on COVID killing his countrymen.
I’m not going to continue s conversation with anyone that thinks Trump was the more intelligent of any two people in a room. Much less a world leader.
you have no idea how fucking stupid trudeau is
You have no idea how much of an Albertan you sound like.
What isn’t mentioned is that there’s a kind of tit for tat norm in politics. If you damage the soft negotiation power that comes from co-operation retaliation is normal. Forcing a group to do something completely against their interests because you took advantage of the size of your resources (hard power) isn’t actually difficult… It’s just that you destroy goodwill and open the door to future “screw you” style retaliation.
“Stomping our head of State” isn’t exactly difficult when there as many Canadians in the world as there are Californians. He basically tanked steel trade because it would cause outsized harm to a smaller country the costs of which which ended up being borne by the US industries to force milk onto a market where it generally isn’t wanted. American milk contains artificial growth hormone which domestic milk doesn’t and threatening to tank our domestic food security because Canadian milk isn’t Government subsidized like American milk is means that we can’t compete on price is a dick move.
Since then that coercive deal has been taken apart by the courts and that Milk deal has all but been rescinded as of November last year. The Biden admin did their best to make it stick but Trumps abysmal understanding of the law extends to international trade law and the flaws were there from the beginning.
Trump damaged a lot of America’s good diplomatic standing for temporary victories and there was a lot of America’s long standing dirty laundry that other nations were already overlooking due to soft goodwill policy. The only advantage Trump had was that people were banking on him being a temporary nuisance. If he returns to power he does invite a lot of opportunities for international retaliation. Canada is a notorious soft diplomacy country. A future Trump lead US might not like what closed door handshakes may be in it’s future.
The US justice system goes soft on fascism. Always has, from operation paperclip to across the board leinency for j6 convictions. Hope this clears things up.
While I agree with the rest of your comment, and Comey waiting until after the election to let certain things be known is fucked, but this isn’t any federal organization in the US, this is basically a memo from a bunch of legal and civil groups worldwide saying ‘we think Biden is enabling genocide’ or at least didn’t prevent it. Aside from that…
Operation paperclip wasn’t a ‘lets go get some of the hardest hardcore Nazis we can because Nazis, fuck yeah!’, it was because they were some of the best minds in engineering, science, and technology. This was right after the US had shown the world the bomb. So they had focused their energy on making a megaweapon, and next was likely seeing what else they could achieve with the knowledge gained from it, with new minds. Propulsion, time travel, advanced small weaponry, gravity manipulation, It’s not often you get to go steal over a thousand of the best minds from a very intelligent now-former superpower. I’m sure it was a free-for-all of ideas with them being mostly not workable, and many came to fruition and were used to advance other technologies, and some we’re keeping secret for when we really need them. I don’t speak on this with authority, only common sense.
There were over 1,600 people taken in OP paperclip. Many, but not all, were former members and some former leaders of the Nazi party.
largest government of the free world
By what measure? I would contest both the largest government and sadly the free world bits nowadays as well.
Trump took four years because the US prosecutor took four years. The court is the same, the prosecutor could have filed earlier, but “the case needed to be airtight”. This takes less than a month because these people just went in and did the thing.
If you know any history involving US activity across the planet, you’d know that being a genocide embracing war criminal comes with being a US president, it’s part of the job.
yep. Former presidents don’t travel internationally much, they stick to Canada, Mexico, England.
People sued Trump really quick too. This is civil not criminal.
I’d wager the ongoing thousands of violent deaths might have something to do with the difference in urgency here.
oh look. the muppet doesn’t understand the difference between filing and trial, and is unclear on media prevarication.
Uh uh um your mom
Trump was getting sued constantly before and during his presidency. You do understand the difference between civil and criminal trials right?
The amount of tribalism in this thread is disgusting.
Biden can’t be bad because that would mean Trump good. And Trump is bad so Biden Good!
lol textbook protection
Biden can point to literally dozens of battles, sieges, and wars that the US was directly involved in and resulted in similar levels of civilian casualties, with no genocide accusations. This is not going anywhere.
In past conflicts America has always had plausible deniabilty.
This time israel is screaming from the rooftops that they want to kill every man woman child and animal in Gaza. And then doing it
Cutting off food water and medicine also doesn’t help. Nor does Biden repeating Zionist propaganda about beheaded babies or rapes that didn’t happen. Or command centers under hospitals which were quickly forgotten about in the media after zero evidence was found of their existence.
Whether it works or not, it will massively tank the reputation of these institutions if they side with Genocide Joe.
Two corrections: On October 7, infants have been executed. While they weren’t beheaded, they were still murdered. And sexual assault by Hamas fighters has been widely documented and proven.
These things did happen. You’re not helping anyone by hiding things that are also true.
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The “fact check site” links to the now completely debunked New York Times article as “evidence” for the rapes. You are arguring against a large amount of evidence here that has been verified independently multiple times. Hamas murdered children, and they also raped women.
I probably won’t convince you, but for the people who care about truth: “The grayzone” you’re linking here is everything but a reputable news source.
From the wikipedia article:
The Grayzone has been criticized for defending authoritarian regimes.[4][20][34][40][61] In Reorienting Hong Kong’s Resistance: Leftism, Decoloniality, and Internationalism, The Grayzone was described as “known for misleading reporting in the service of authoritarian states”.[25] Nerma Jelacic, writing in the Index on Censorship, described The Grayzone as “a Kremlin-connected online outlet that pushes pro-Russian conspiracy theories and genocide denial.”[62] In 2019, The Grayzone had claimed the Commission for International Justice and Accountability, of which Jelacic is a director, collaborated with ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra affiliates.[62]
You spread disinformation. You’re not helping anyone by doing that. Just stop, okay?
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Your claims that there are evidence is false because there is none.
I literally provide resources of evidence and all you say there is “none”??
give me evidence backed by multiple, independent sources. Then I have a look. Otherwise this is nothing but misinformation.
Going after the US instead of Israel will definitely end it.
Did you even read the summary? They’re literally both being pursued
Israel has an ICJ case going after it already. Biden must be held accountable for his complicity in genocide as well.
Did the US ever kill 1% of a country’s population in less than four months? Iraq took years to reach 0.5% and it was a big fucking deal.
I’m going to assume you’re posting in good faith until proven otherwise.
The US never fought an urban country the size of Las Vegas, so a country-scale comparison is poor. We have however engaged in city-scale battles lasting several months, many of which killed 1% of the civilian population. A pretty good recent example is Mosul. There are several more egregious examples in the world wars, Korea, Vietnam, etc. notably we carpet bombed Tokyo for months killing several percent of the population.
Be careful not to ask why a country is packed into the size of Vegas or you may realize that was a coordinated campaign by the same people who are now claiming it’s impossible to not slaughter innocents because of the way THEY designed the strip.
Intentionally brining about conditions that lead to destruction in whole or part of a group is genocide, literally as written, in the Geneva Convention. Israel is the reason it’s so populated there, so when they blame the density, they blame themselves.
I’m well aware of the history and parallels with Jewish ghettos. These are somewhat confounded by repeated rejected offers of a two-state solution over 70 years, periods on unilateral Israeli withdrawal, the election of Hamas, decades of terror attacks on Israeli civilians with popular support, and a recent 9/11 scale massacre which also has popular support.
Also not to nitpick, but Israel didn’t create or design the Gaza strip. That was Egypt, who controlled it for 20 years without giving them citizenship or letting them leave.
Here’s a cool Netanyahu quote:
Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas.
This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank
- Speaking to Likud members of the Knesset (March 2019), as cited in “Another Concept Implodes: Israel Can’t Be Managed by a Criminal Defendant”, Haaretz (9 October 2023)
Here’s a compact 5 minute video about Hamas origins and how israel propped them up themselves.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Here’s a compact 5 minute video about Hamas origins and how israel propped them up themselves.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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I hate that I am defending Israel when I say this because what is occurring in Gaza is tragic, but a lot of people are confusing “Genocide” for perceived “War Crimes” as defined by international law and also confusing “Hamas” for “Palestine” or the “Palestinian Authority”.
Hamas is terrorist government (similar in nature to the Taliban) that receives a lot of external funding from countries that actively wish to see the death of Israel and all Jews, making Hamas the chief perpetrators of Genocide in this conflict despite how ineffective they have been in their goals.
Israel was attacked by this terrorist government, and is now defending itself with the expressed war goal of destroying Hamas. While Israel has had a tenuous relationship with the Palestinian people (namely the government’s active efforts to limit the Palestinian Authority and drag their feet on grant the PA more autonomy and their own state which is deplorable and inexcusable), they do not and have not wished to kill an entire culture of people.
Complicating matters, Hamas commonly employs warfare techniques that go against the Geneva Convention like placing government and military headquarters in basements of protected buildings like Hospitals and places of worship. The moment they do that, and abuse those international recognized sanctuaries, they become legitimate military targets leading to the tragic deaths of unwitting civilians.
People can object to the war on the grounds that war is tragic and results in many civilian casualties, but to make meritless claims is detrimental to both international institutions and to the definition of a Genocide. South Africa calls what Israel is doing a genocide, but also explicitly looks the other way with Ukraine and continues to forge close ties with Putin? (For the record, Russia’s actions in Ukraine are also not considered genocide under it’s strict international definition, but they have been found guilty of war crimes).
Israel has an internationally recognized right to defend itself, and it is doing that by dismantling Hamas through force. The Palestinian people are unfortunately caught in the crossfire. With that said, Israel’s methods to this end are not above criticism, and they have faced pressure from the US and Biden to limit civilian casualties wherever possible, and use ground forces to directly attack Hamas rather than relying on airstrikes that have resulted in many innocent deaths.
For those reading who think all war is bad, I’ll leave you with this quote from John Stuart Mills:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice, — is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.
All sides seem to get confused about the difference between Hamas and the Palestinians, at least when it suits them.
The charge of genocide is entirely fair and well supported. Israel’s consistent refusals to allow adequate aid, and cutting off water and power are sufficient all by themselves to support that claim, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
The reason this is a genocide where Ukraine is more of a warcrimes but not Genocide situation has to do with how international relief for civilians is handled. Routinely blocking international relief efforts to evacuate or treat the wounded, provide food, water and fuel for civilians tends to threaten the bit of genocide ruling that marks “Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”. Making " reasonable" provision keeps that off of the table. Russia has been cagey about relief efforts but has always fallen short of a full blockade.
But when you look at Israel they have a situation set up where prior to this conflict they had a system in place that put a lot of paperwork in place for Pallistinians to use Israeli hospitals. If you then remove the hospitals that are open for unrestricted Palistinian use and then allow the pre-existing system to become choked with paperwork for a problem you aren’t really interested in solving you aren’t fulfilling your duty of care. The Israeli government has also outright said it’s intention is to block food, water and fuel going to Palistinian civilians. Fuel sounds like a lesser consideration but it is key to keeping sanitation at reasonable levels.
So you have a civilian population starving, likely fighting outbreaks of cholera, dysentary, typhoid intestinal parasites and hepatitis with no viable place to seek treatment and international aid in the form of food, water and medical supplies has been stopped, the intention being made baldly clear by statements made by high ranking officials that this is a deliberate tactic.
Thusfar Egypt and Jordan have blocked refugees from entering the country because of concerns of damage to their Israeli peace treaties which means the dominos are set to cause massive loss of life for Palestinian civilians where help is held out of reach by Israeli interests. Hence, a genocide.
Well, sheer number of civilian causalities isn’t genocide. Israel is stealing land and pushing away Palestinians from their homes. Even if Palestinians weren’t murdered and just forced to emigrate that would still wipe their culture
Is Israel stealing land in the Gaza strip? Unlike the West Bank there are no settlements and the border is a clearly defined wall. I agree if they forcibly resettle the population and claim the strip for themselves that would be ethnic cleansing, but they haven’t done that.
Pushing civilians out of a city during war is common practice (see literally any Eastern Ukrainian city). Pushing them out of their country is not. Gaza is essentially an urban city-state which conflates these two actions.
They have openly stated that’s their intention, not succeeding yet is not a measure of how much they want to succeed.
Can you offer any proof of that beyond some disgusting statements by the finance minister, who is not setting military policy?
Just Google it my dude:
The Israeli Intelligence ministry, in a ‘concept paper,’ proposes transferring Gaza civilians to Egypt https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-population-transfer-hamas-egypt-palestinians-refugees-5f99378c0af6aca183a90c631fa4da5a
Yup that’s bad and I appreciate the source, thanks. The devil’s advocate counterpoint would be that virtually all nations have intelligence “concepts” for wildly implausible actions they have no intention of pursuing. It’s kind of the job of the intelligence agency to prepare for any potential eventuality. I’m pretty sure the US has detailed plans for war with Canada, should they be needed. Egypt is the country who originally locked the Gaza Strip down - there is next to zero chance Israel could force a resettlement in Egypt. But if they made an actual attempt, it would be ethnic cleansing. At that point, should the US government continue support, this case would actually have merit.
The difference here is the Palestinians don’t have passports, they can’t return. Even our war plans with Canada don’t include genocide, this plan does (because there is no opportunity to return).
Unlike the West Bank
Unlike a specific case that completely proves my point? Palestinians have homes in the west bank and Israel is still colonizing that land
We’re talking about Gaza in this thread. Any evidence of stealing land in Gaza?
I love how you still can’t counter my point that what Israel is doing in the west bank is ethnic cleansing. You’re argument is honestly hilarious, I don’t even want to report it so more people can read how stupid you are
What Israel is doing on the West Bank is ethnic cleansing. Done. Let’s return to Gaza now.
Cool, now read through every comment. This thread never mentioned Gaza, so get out of your own ass. You’re minimizing ethnic cleansing
Yes. They are stealing land in the Gaza strip. They are also stealing land in the West Bank. None of it was theirs to begin with, but the old “agreed upon” lines don’t exist anymore either.
Please point me to any Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip.
I imagine the Genocide claim will be aided by the targeting of hospitals which are highly restricted targets in wartime which even if their protected status is removed requires a lot of very specific measures to be taken to not be a warcrime. Since the permit system allowing use of Israeli hospitals to Palistinian patients has not relaxed and has for the most part closed up shop it is a bad look.
Not to mention the Israeli government had made outright statements that they intend to starve the civilians of food, water and fuel (fuel being fairly key to sanitation ). In fact they have actively attempted to block international relief efforts in the region so wouldn’t that mean they are :
“Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part”
After all if you starve people in unsanitary conditions and take any medical care options effectively off the table I would imagine a fairly large part of the group would die as a consequence. I imagine the actual brief will have many counts as to why this is specifically a Genocide but all they need to do is fail one.
Their government and wealthy elite have made their intentions very clear with repeated statements. You don’t need to wait for a genocide to be done to act. In fact it’s preferable if you don’t.
Frankly, genocide or not, there should be consequences for the high amount of civilian casualties in those US conflicts.
Sure, but that’s a moral argument relating to the justification of different wars, weighing of collateral damage, etc. This is a legal case based on the genocide convention of 1948, and if there is no genocide, it falls apart.
Right. But there is a genocide occurring.
Yeah but not if you just deny it. The right have great succes denying genocide too. 6 million 6 schmilion amirite?
Nobody credible is estimating the US killed this many civilians this quickly. It took years of small incidents adding up. We also had a habit of prosecuting soldiers who committed obvious warcrimes.
“I killed this person but I can point out to many other similar situations where this happen in the past”
Amazing logic…
… Literally how legal precedent works mate
No it’s not. You need to have a trial to have legal precedent. You can’t base a legal precedent on “Those other times were the same I reckon.”
Lazy, wrong bullshit like this gets 7 upvotes, how? Brigading.
Yup you’re right of course. It was a throwaway reply to someone clearly arguing in bad faith. While it isn’t legal precedent, it is a fairly compelling defense.
It is not in any way compelling unless you’re just looking for excuses. Take your bad faith genocide apologia to someone gullible enough for it.
EDIT: Also just take a moment to notice how fucking wild it is that “Yeah, I was totally wrong but the other guy was also wrong I reckon so it’s fine also I think what I said was good actually,” was their defense. That sure was a bunch of words they said.
Again, the fact anybody liked this comment is a definite sign of brigading.
It’s one of most basic things about Law that merelly “somebody else did the same and got away with it” isn’t at all a valid defense.
The act itself is lawful or unlawful, quite independently of other people having done the same and gotten away with it.
Good luck with the “those other guys did it too and didn’t get a ticket” argumentation in a Court of Law when you try to contest a speeding ticket…
“It was done before and never taken to court” does not create a legal precedent and even if taken to court, it requires a high enough court and it’s specifically about interpreting certain points of Law, so merelly “A similar situation yielded Not Guilty” means nothing.
Oh really? Any of them after Vietnam or are we going for the Dresden defense?
That’s not how the courts work here.
Where?
Well, let’s see, the lawsuit was filed in the United States, in a US court, and under US laws.
So, obviously, I’m talking about Outer Mongolia.
I was going to guess Rabul. Oops.
How so? The article is about them having Amicus briefs with the court in the very real lawsuit against Biden and selected cabinet members.
I’m referring to the lawsuit itself. It may be “very real”, but it’s also complete nonsense.
US courts don’t rule on political questions, nor do they decide US foreign policy, nor do they provide advisory opinions. This lawsuit fails to state a cognizable claim and seeks relief that is beyond the power of the judiciary to grant.
The courts can’t force him to support Palestine, that’s true. But they can enforce US laws against giving weapons and aid to war criminals. That seems to fall pretty neatly under “do everything possible to stop Israel”.
Acting like this is above our laws is not going to help us or them.
Which US laws are you talking about?
The Leahy Act.
“The DoD Leahy law is similar to the State Leahy law. Since 1999, Congress included the DoD Leahy law in its annual appropriations act. The DoD Leahy law is now permanent in Section 362 of Title 10 of the U.S. Code. It requires that DoD-appropriated funds may not be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a foreign security force unit if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that such unit has committed a GVHR. The law allows for two exceptions to this restriction. The first in cases where the Secretary of Defense (after consultation with the Secretary of State) determines that the government of that country has taken all necessary corrective steps. This first exception is also known as “remediation.” A second exception exists if U.S. equipment or other assistance is necessary to assist in disaster relief operations or other humanitarian or national security emergencies.”
I don’t think that works. You’d still have a situation where the plaintiffs are asking the court to decide US foreign and defense policy.
No. That’s the law as passed by Congress. Either it’s enforceable or it isn’t.
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
In late December, 77 groups — representing tens of thousands of lawyers, civil society leaders, and activists from six continents — filed an amicus brief in a lawsuit that Palestinian human rights organizations, residents of Gaza, and U.S. citizens with family members impacted by Israel’s ongoing assault brought against the Biden administration.
Top administration officials have been dismissive of the case before the ICJ as well, with White House National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby calling it “meritless, counterproductive, and completely without any basis in fact whatsoever,” and Blinken deriding it on similar terms.
In late October, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu invoked a biblical verse about an enemy of ancient Israel that has long been cited to justify killing Palestinians.
The plaintiffs responded to the administration’s motion to dismiss on December 22, arguing that there is precedent for U.S. courts to adjudicate questions surrounding genocide and that their legal challenge is about more than the actions of a foreign state.
(The Biden administration is facing another federal lawsuit that accuses it of failing to protect Palestinian Americans stuck in Gaza, drawing a contrast to its efforts to help Israeli dual nationals.)
Correction: January 10, 2024, 4:45 p.m. ETA previous version of this article incorrectly stated that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu invoked Amalek in November; in fact, he made those comments in late October.
The original article contains 1,484 words, the summary contains 222 words. Saved 85%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
This shit is going nowhere.
It got in the news, and thematizes Biden’s election bid with him supporting a fascist Netanyahu’s genocide. Not a good look when you’re running as pretty much a protest vote against a fascist.
I suspect getting in the news was the objective. Media is now going to report every twist and turn of the trial, alienating Biden voters who want to vote for “not a fascist”.
Man, I hope the US will knock this shit off, jail Trump yesterday, and figure out a way to have sensible politics, or it’s going to be a shitty world.
and figure out a way to have sensible politics, or it’s going to be a shitty world.
I think we made that choice in 2016 unfortunately
There is always a choice. Sometimes they just don’t put it on the ballot.
That’s probably good, but why isn’t Russia facing similar charges?
Putin is on the watch list and will get arrested if he enters allied countries right?
July 2023: Putin won’t attend a South Africa summit next month, avoiding possible arrest
The same SA that said they didn’t want to arrest Putin and hold him accountable? I love how SA is trying to act like the good guy now when they wouldn’t hold the bad guy accountable just a few months ago. Israel’s war against Hamas, and their killing of civilians is the same level of horrible as Russia’s and yet South Africa plugged their ears on that one. They’re a joke of a nation at this point (and I get the complex Soviet history with apartheid they have).
Probably because Russia is an international pariah state that doesn’t even bother responding to legal accusations anymore, while Israel is only working its way up to that status currently.
They are, have been convicted in the ICJ, that Israel has also been cited to. Putin has an active arrest warrant in a lot of the world as a result. Do you think Biden will get one?
One genocide does not justify another either way.
Ignoring the whataboutism, here you go:
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Not to banalize ukraine civilians casualities and Putin crimes but firstly no Russian officials used genocidal statements and secondly gaza casuality in 3 months is more than the double of ukraine casualities in almost 2 years.
False.
Russian officials have frequently stated things like Ukrainian does not exist, it’s a fake ethnicity, and that they’re all Russian. They’ve spoken about how they wish to destroy this non-existent culture as well.
Secondly, they are literally committing genocide and the ICC has a warrant out on Putin for genocide.
Experts disagree on the genocide claim WRT Ukraine:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/27/russia-guilty-inciting-genocide-ukraine-expert-reportAlso we don’t know how bad the civilian casualties are in Crimea and other occupied cities like Mariupol, other than being catastrophically bad based on satellite pictures of mass burial sites.
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So, a couple of things… first… removed under rule 3. But also… he’s not entirely wrong if you look at the number of civilians killed. In Ukraine about 10,000 confirmed killed compared to 22,000 and counting in Gaza.
Where he’s off base is that there are 11,000 missing in Ukraine as well. It’s a much, much bigger territory, we won’t know the full accounting in Ukraine, if we ever will.
As to Russia and genocide, saying a culture doesn’t exist and they’re “really” Russian is totally different from Israel’s attitude to Palestinians.
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So, a couple of things… first… removed under rule 3. But also… he’s not entirely wrong if you look at the number of civilians killed. In Ukraine about 10,000 confirmed killed compared to 22,000 and counting in Gaza.
Where he’s off base is that there are 11,000 missing in Ukraine as well. It’s a much, much bigger territory, we won’t know the full accounting in Ukraine, if we ever will.
As to Russia and genocide, saying a culture doesn’t exist and they’re “really” Russian is totally different from Israel’s attitude to Palestinians.
Where he’s off base is that there are 11,000 missing in Ukraine as well.
I’m not sure what the topic is, but there are also a ton of missing (usually buried under rubble) people in Gaza.
Seems like you removed it because you disagreed.
The removed comments weren’t just disagreeing, they were personal attacks.
I guess I misunderstood and I respect your decision.
When in doubt, you can always view the modlog. It will show you the full comment and the stated reasons for removal:
This is all public info, just be aware that a lot of the removed comments are pretty terrible. ;)
Found the zionist.
Religion is idiotic also.
Zionism isn’t a religion-based ideology.
Maybe wanna do some research before commenting.
Zionism was and is still hostile to Jews. Jews are slowly turning themselves against the nonsensical State of “Israel”. Israel doesn’t represent world Jewry.
It… is?
Ridiculous. What’d you do your own research here?
Id love when that happens, TBH.
Also, why didn’t the Bush administration ever face anything for the invasion of Iraq and legalizing torture?
I wonder whether the people pushing these charges are being compensated by China/Russia for it.
a) That wasn’t genocide. That was imperialism to enrich American corporations.
b) When you’re a superpower they let you grab em by the pussy.
I think #1 was because the usa literally made a law/policy statement declaring they would invade if ever charges were filed.
Yeah that’s bullshit.
they will be arrested and whipped and imprisoned with only bread and water >))))
I wonder how many of these groups actually give a shit about Palestinians, and which ones are using their dire situation to push some bullshit political agenda… They have to know nothing real will come of this, and I’m sure there are many who just love the timing of this. How convenient for them.
They have to know nothing real will come of this, and I’m sure there are many who just love the timing of this. How convenient for them.
Even if they have no foreign ties, it makes sense to do this now, as pressuring Biden and the US has the best effect now, as the genocide is still happening and Biden has something (the election) to lose.
Also, labelling people who are doing things inconvenient to the current mainstream is very much Russia-like. Please be better. Trump is a clear and present threat, but there are ways other than Trump to slide into fascism.
Oh fuck off
If we don’t do fascism then the fascists will do fascism first!
Many Republicans are feigning support for Gazans because they know that certain Leftists will fall for the ruse and abstain from voting for Biden.
Perhaps buy them all a dictionary first?
DOZENS OF LEGAL and civil society organizations from around the world have thrown their weight behind a U.S. lawsuit accusing President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, and Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin for failing to “prevent an unfolding genocide” in Gaza.
US does something: “US WORLD POLICE LEAVE OTHER COUNTRIES ALONE”
US doesn’t do something: “DOING NOTHING IS LITERALLY THE SAME AS GENOCIDE, YOU ARE LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE”
Usually I’d agree with this but the US is the main supplier of weapons to Israel. So…
Is that even true? From what I understand Israel produces a majority of their military tech themselves. Rafael is one of the top dogs when it comes to stuff that goes boom
Thanks to billions of dollars of subsidies, training, and resources provided by…?
The fellow tax payers of Israel because they kind of don’t trust their neighbors
Okay so it’s actually really easy for you to look up how many billions of dollars we have given to Israel, but if you really want to insist that they are financially and politically independent in their ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, then sure, have it your way
I mean you say that, yet the Palestinians would probably say it’s the other way around and it is in fact Israel who is in control of the West. Hamas shouldn’t have 9/11nd the Israeli if they didn’t want to get cleansed. The blood of the women and children they hide behind is on their hands as far as I’m concerned.
All of Israel is stolen land. It’s not fair to equate violence when one group is occupied and one is the occupier.
Hamas shouldn’t have 9/11’d them, but Israel shouldn’t have stolen all the land from palestinians and cramp them into a ghetto 4 times denser than LA, tell the civilians to evacuate to the other end of the city, then bomb at least 10 times more civilian causalities who were trying to escape.
With the extreme amounts of lobbying by Israel, I wouldn’t be Surprised Israel has significant control over the west. But that’s besides the point, we’re still giving billions of dollars for colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
None of this should be a surprise, look at American military policy such as Real Politik. None of Israel’s creation in the Middle East instead of Rwanda was because the west was sympathetic to Jewish struggles. It was a pragmatic choice to create an ally near a center of command closer to the East. Joe Biden himself, decades ago, said if Israel didn’t already exist in the middle east, we would have to make one anyways
I’m dumb and confused. What is it that you normally agree with?
If America does nothing it’s not their fault. But PugJesus is somehow saying that America is doing nothing in Gaza which is a huge lie.
DOING NOTHING
Selling them all those guns, moving aircraft carriers in to defend them, running interference at the UN, providing diplomatic cover, etc.
The rest of the world is trying to stop the IDF and the lunatics that netanyahu put in charge from continuing their genocide and we are active in preventing that.
Selling them all those guns,
That’s a much longer-term issue. I would argue that the current sales of ammunition, while distasteful, are little more than token support to a supposed ‘ally’.
moving aircraft carriers in to defend them
Alright, that one is to discourage a full-fledged war from breaking out. And I’m pretty sure that will not be any better for the Palestinian people than the current scenario.
running interference at the UN,
Fair enough on that one.
providing diplomatic cover, etc.
We’ve actually been more standoffish to Israel than I’ve ever seen before in terms of public statements. I think the nakedness of it has rattled some people in the State Department.
Didn’t Biden push through a sale specifically for this “war” though?
Hence the ‘current sales of ammunition’.
Don’t forget directly providing intelligence https://theintercept.com/2024/01/11/israel-air-force-targeting-intelligence/
You also specifically said it was just part of their long term support. Why is it such an emergency that we provide those weapons now if it’s little more than a token gesture?
Ah, that would tie in to both the fact that Israel is a major purchaser of US equipment and that we don’t want Israel to be invaded, because God fucking knows how that will end.
The first is that when a country buys weapons from another, they want to know that they can continue to purchase the supplies that let them continue to operate those weapons. If not, well, they won’t purchase arms from that country anymore - if they will cut you off for policy disputes, then you’re at their mercy, and that’s unacceptable to most nations. A reputation for continuing to supply the weaponry we sell even to those we have disputes with, such as Turkiye and Egypt, is valuable to have for this reason. And while the profit motive is often championed as the reason for the sales, the real cause for its importance is influence - it’s much easier to integrate and cooperate with countries which use the same systems and have economic ties to you.
The second is that Israel isn’t about to literally run out of artillery shells for their current rate of genocide, but a perception of reduced supply could embolden other actors in the region to take aggressive action while stockpiles are lower. One of the major sales recently was of tank shells, which are not being used in large amounts in Gaza at the moment (most of it is being done by artillery and airstrikes) - a sale to shore up stockpiles to ward off the prospect of an intervention by a hostile neighbor. A war breaking out would be… disastrous. For Palestinians and everyone else.
Now, all this being said, I still think that we shouldn’t sell them anything at this moment, reputation be damned. But I also think it’s not a major contributor to the ongoing genocide, and it’s not much more than a continuation of prior policies.
Yeah, super standoffish. You can tell by how it’s made no fucking difference, while the US sells them hundreds of thousands of tons of bombs and shells.
But they crooked an eyebrow while doing it, and that’s what really matters.
More stand off ish in the press. And only in recent years after almost a century of colonialism
I do kind of agree, this is a bit much, but we are giving them lots of weapons, like i understand maintaining the alliance & there is a large jewish lobby in the USA but like the ammunition would be much better spent in Kharkiv or Robotnye vs Gaza City imo.
I mean, I’m in support of stopping aid to Israel entirely, and have been for years, since this is not in any way a new genocide.
But let’s not pretend that the timing is anything but an excuse to beat on the “US BAD” drum.
But let’s not pretend that the timing is anything but an excuse to beat on the “US BAD” drum.
I would disagree.
It’s a valid tactic to shame the US in order to move public opinion in a way that affects democrats. That’s a legit strategy to remove the biggest roadblock to holding Israel accountable, not just a chance for cheap political point-scoring.
I’m sure it will also be used for that by some but so what? We are bad. We’re a state. Any organization that holds power based on their control of violence is by definition evil. And worse, we’re a global imperial power, the worst kind of state. Maybe you think we’re the lesser evil, but we’re still quite obviously bad. All countries are vermin.
All countries are vermin.
Truest statement of 2024
As true now as it was in the neolithic.
I would disagree. It’s a valid tactic to shame the US in order to move public opinion in a way that affects democrats. That’s a legit strategy to remove the biggest roadblock to holding Israel accountable, not just a chance for cheap political point-scoring.
But will it? Bringing charges against the Biden administration are unlikely to cause the Biden administration to change course, because such would be immediately jumped on by pro-Israel Democrats (ie the majority) and the entire Republican Party. It’s unlikely to change opinions here in the US for the better, because Republicans want genocide, while Democrats have already largely made up their minds as to whether Israel’s response is disproportionate or not.
That leaves a small number of swing voters to change - but the only change that would be noticeable by them would be an abandonment of the anti-Israel elements of the Democratic Party for not being anti-Israel enough. In every other scenario, their opinions on Israel are immaterial due to the overwhelming support from the other two, larger groups.
My point isn’t that we shouldn’t be calling out Israel’s genocide for what it is. We absolutely should be. My point is that apportioning blame to the Biden administration or attempting to hold the US government legally responsible for someone else’s genocide is counterproductive at best.
But will it?
By itself almost certainly not, but it’s rare for any one thing to change policy. Maybe something interesting comes out in court, or the government’s arguments make it look particularly bad. Probably not, but equally I doubt it’s going to backfire strongly.
I don’t know, man. It probably won’t backfire on the people bringing the suit, but it very easily could damage Biden at no expense to the pro-Israel wing. Which, in case anyone else reading this needs it to be said, would have even less desirable results regarding the ongoing genocide.
Put another way, if Biden ends up punished at the ballot box, pro-Israel voters are a MUCH larger bloc than us anti-Israel voters. The sad strategic answer of the next candidate will not be “Biden lost pro-Israel votes AND anti-Israel votes by stepping away from Israel; I had better step even further away in the hopes that it’ll be good enough for them this time!” it will be “Anti-Israel voters won’t help me if I step away from Israel, so it’s better to just go all-in on uncritical support for genocide to keep pro-Israel voters”.
When an official begins to step away from long-standing policy embedded deep into the institutions of government, the answer shouldn’t be to drag them for not stepping away far enough. It should be to emphasize that the move is good, and should be repeated.
Adolf Hitler was also just doing what the voters wanted right
You realize the world is full of people and organizations with many different opinions and interests, don’t you? It is impossible for anyone to do anything, or fail to do anything without people being unhappy and critical about it. The bigger and more powerful you are the louder that will be. There should be nothing surprising about this.
This is a really wierd statement/sentiment to me. Of course every decision is going to have detractors but when war crimes and genocide are involved, it gets bumped up a level past just “agree to disagree”
“Failed to prevent” Talk about a nonsense piece of drivel that would be dismissed with the most severe prejudice possible by a court.
We’re actively blocking the rest of the world’s efforts to stop netanyahu’s genocide. That clearly makes us a responsibility party. The intercept is one of the few sources of actual journalism in the US.
Have you actually read this lawsuit? It asks for things that US courts simply cannot do.
The Intercept? Are you kidding me?! They are openly committed to advocacy journalism. They don’t even make a pretense of trying to be fair-minded, objective or operating in good-faith. Greenwald is an attorney who’s openly said that he approaches journalism the same way he approaches a case as a litigator.
I am a journalist by formal academic training --though I don’t really work in the business anymore-- and I can tell you for a fact that The Intercept is basically a case study in how many different ways a publication can violate SPJ’s code of ethics. They are a fucking disgrace to the profession and it’s galling that people like you take them seriously.
Why’d you leave journalism?
Are they doing something other than vetoing UN resolutions? Cause those are about as effective as protest voting for third parties in US elections.
BECAUSE OF US VETOES.
Jesus.
Oh, I’d bet they’d totally have an effect if they weren’t vetoed.
If countries want to do something, they don’t need the UN for it. The UN is literally just the accumulated efforts of all the countries that are part of it.
If they actually wanted to do something, the US saying “lol nah” shouldn’t stop them.
Cause those are about as effective as protest voting for third parties in US elections.
They’re that ineffective when you have a veto power in your back. Otherwise they can do a lot.
This is a publicity stunt on a scale to rival Ken Paxton, with the legal footing to match
BTW, did anybody notice this is the ONLY source reporting this trash?
Do you need the outlets to say it in unison?
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