The extraverts had the tables turned on them in 2020 and have been itchy for a captive audience ever since. It’s a drug fix for these people, nothing more. I’ve skipped every cross country in-person team building gibberish since 2020 and will continue to do so.
I’m fairly pro-Israel and even I think this is wildly hyperbolic.
Palestinian civilian death counts, which are about 18k of the total 26k estimated total deaths, are on the high side even for urban combat. They’re not the insane numbers that would indicate deliberate genocide, but they are totally consistent with a strategy of accepting collateral damage when a military target is possible to hit. This isn’t even necessarily the wrong tactic, as Hamas is clearly using human shields, operating out of hospitals, etc, but it is at odds with the assertion.
The article seems to be arguing a subtly different claim, namely “Israel is doing a lot to prevent civilian casualties given their tactical choices”. That may well be true, but let’s not pretend there weren’t options that reduced civilian casualties at the cost of Israeli military deaths.
Hopefully I’ve sufficiently angered both political extremes here.
Yeah for total deaths. Mine add up to 26k. These numbers have never been civilian only.
Unfortunately I think we need to be drawing from the “children” numbers here. Hamas uses teenage soldiers extensively, and they have every incentive to put them on the front lines and report them under the “dead children” numbers.
My personal belief, and feel free to disagree, is that the numbers look something like this:
Hamas militants killed: 3000 adults, 5000 children (aged 16 - 18), all male. Totaling 8000.
Civilians killed: 5000 children, 5000 women, 8000 men. Totalling 18000.
It’s just genocide all the way down with you guys
Oh they definitely exaggerate - all parties to a conflict do. I accounted for that by using their estimates from more than a month ago against Hamas’s current casualty counts. I think that’s a fairly even-handed take but I’m sure people will disagree.
It was 70% last month. Was that an overcount or is this an undercount?
You think Israel dropped 25,000 bombs, invaded, and has been waging urban combat for 4 months, but has only killed 1,000 Hamas militants? That’s just silly.
Also Hamas uses child soldiers extensively (including as suicide bombers) so you can drop the “adult” part.
Did I take a position on the genocide question? No.
I stated 2 facts, which you seem to find inconvenient for your narrative. We don’t have a disagreement, unless you’re disputing them?
It doesn’t fit your narrative, but the civilian/military casualty numbers are on the high side of normal for urban combat.
Super weird to defend distributing Hamas propaganda. Helping them hurts Palestinians too, who generally don’t like Hamas.
You’re including both civilian and soldier deaths (which is what Hamas wants you to do, don’t help them). Best estimates are now 8-10k Hamas soldiers, 16-18k civilians.
Bystander, noun: “a person who is present at an event or incident but does not take part.”
They were bystanders until they were taken hostage. Now they’re being forced to take part involuntarily, which makes them victims.
Super weird point to fight on. Obviously there are victims in every war.
They look more like victims to me, being taken hostage for 4 months and all. But you do you
Fun fact: the US Chamber of Commerce is not a government agency. It’s just a private (nonprofit) business that loves to be confused with one.
That’s a fair point. I don’t know to what extent they were involved in negotiations. I think it was significant as we’ve had several days of news about “constructive” negotiations, but I can’t prove that.
Ok but if they have no interest in a ceasefire or hostage exchange, then they are by definition negotiating in bad faith…
Sounds like you guys are just mad an international court disagreed with you. If that makes them “illegitimate”, then you don’t actually want justice.
Inb4 seething
You including the hostages in that?
In what universe would a ceasefire be counterproductive to Hamas? They’re getting wrecked on a daily basis.
I don’t think they have 35 “returnable” hostages at this point.
No shit they’re here on a student visa. This isn’t new.