- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
Content Warning: Graphic descriptions of sexual assault
A two-month investigation by The Times uncovered painful new details, establishing that the attacks against women were not isolated events but part of a broader pattern of gender-based violence on Oct. 7.
Relying on video footage, photographs, GPS data from mobile phones and interviews with more than 150 people, including witnesses, medical personnel, soldiers and rape counselors, The Times identified at least seven locations where Israeli women and girls appear to have been sexually assaulted or mutilated.
Four witnesses described in graphic detail seeing women raped and killed at two different places along Route 232, the same highway where Ms. Abdush’s half-naked body was found sprawled on the road at a third location.
And The Times interviewed several soldiers and volunteer medics who together described finding more than 30 bodies of women and girls in and around the rave site and in two kibbutzim in a similar state as Ms. Abdush’s — legs spread, clothes torn off, signs of abuse in their genital areas.
Are there a lot of Hamas supporters here? Let alone “did nothing wrong” people?
No, only people against the occupation and against the genocide currently happening in Gaza. Pro-zionists like to paint everyone critical of Israel’s atrocities as terrorism supporters and as antisemites. But nobody is saying October 7th wasn’t horrible. Nobody is saying rape isn’t horrible. Resistance to this brutal occupation is always going to be nasty. The Palestinians have no peaceful means to resolve the conflict. That doesn’t make terrorism OK but it was inevitable given how Israel is oppressing the Palestinians
There are a decent number of tankies screeching about how Israel made them gangrape children with their colonization.
I’m willing to listen to an argument that any level of violence is justified to fight against a superior occupation force, but the sexual violence just shows what Hamas, and all fundamentalists for that matter, really are, and it isn’t “freedom fighters.”
Maybe it’s because I blocked tankie shit, but I never see these comments. Do you have an example of straight up Hamas did nothing wrong or is this another example of criticism of Israel’s ethnic cleansing being intentionally confused with antisemitism and terrorism apologia? Because I see that all the damn time
Removed by mod
Israel’s actions have a role in the origin story of the Oct 7th attacks (and the existence of a violent resistance in general). Of course it isn’t as simple as “Israel made them do it”, but it isn’t as simple as “Hamas just did it because they’re monsters” either.
It’s not just rape but the mutilation. Here’s one instance of mutilation and torture from the article:
Yes, Israel has their history of atrocity to with events like the Sabra and Shatila Massacre. But with barbarism like this, I think Israel has justification and obligation to respond with military force. They are not responding with justifiable military measure and will also need to be held to account.
Respond with military force is not bombing the ever loving fuck out of the whole area, making almost all 2 million inhabitants homeless and causing a famine and water crisis. And there are examples of individual IDF atrocities just as well, such as shooting unarmed civilians waving a makeshift white flag. And we only learned about that one because they turned out to be Israeli civilians rather than subhuman Palestinian civilians
Again, nobody is saying Israel doesnt have a right to defend itself. It just doesn’t have the right to kill indiscriminately, take people’s homes, deny them basic human rights and level Gaza every couple of years.
Yes. That is why I said the Israel response employed is not justifiable.
So then why the euphemism? By “I think they went a teeny bit too far” do you mean this is an offensive war aimed at driving the Gazans into Egypt?
This is not a defensive action. This is not border security. This is not an anti-terrorism operation. Call it what it is: This is ethnic cleansing.
It is cyclical and retaliatory.
Looking at the world through the lens of media is a concept as old as humanity itself. The edgier shows will have The Hero feel horror at the realization that their army is going to do bad stuff to a sacked city and depict them heroically protecting one family or person to show that they are above it all.
The reality is that doing so is a good way to have your army revolt against you right then and there. Fragging is for more than just the incompetent Lieutenant who is going to get the hero killed.
And that is what is happening here. Same as it happens in every war (just ask any Chinese or Korean person about their mixed feelings on the US and Russia liberating their grandparents from the horrors of Imperial Japan and how white people have never been able to tell Asians apart…). An atrocity happened. Vengeance is needed. And maybe the locals are “siding with the enemy” either vocally or by just not assisting in stopping them.
And that is even worse in this situation. Because the communities and people attacked were the ones who lived nearest to the prison walls and/or who outright advocated for peaceful resolutions. Knowing that your sister, who wanted nothing more than a peaceful resolution to the unjust imprisonment of a people, was brutally raped and murdered by those same people? That fundamentally shuts off your ability to listen to “both sides” and starts making it really hard to acknowledge that the residential building that you KNOW a terrorist leader is hiding in isn’t actively protecting said leader.
So the soldiers and even leadership who understand how fucked this all is? They literally cannot do anything because it will just result in them having to realize how little control they have over their soldiers at this point and potentially being deemed “a traitor” while they are in a position where it would be trivial to say a terrorist popped out and killed them. Same with the rank and file who want to speak out against the violence or even the people relaying the orders for artillery and missiles.
At this point, everyone more or less understands that if you kill one “terrorist” you likely have made two more between collateral damage and just taking someone’s loved one away from them. But the same applies to both sides. It is just that, ever increasingly, one side has enough munitions to level a large city and the other depends on human shields to protect them.
I understand that bombing the shit out of them is not the ideal solution. But what on earth should be done when such a barbaric and vicious enemy is aslo hiding deep within civilian population. How the hell do you manage to separate them?
I’ve seen some comments that amounted to Oct. 7th denialism, that claims of sexual assault are lies, etc.
Well, I’m not going to claim they’re lies. However, Israel has shown repeatedly they aren’t to be trusted either. It’s a real sad state of affairs that we have to wait for independent 3rd party verification to really have a clue about what’s going on.
I posted this in world news. Lots of downvotes and what aboutism that acts like Hamas didn’t do this. https://p.lemmy.world/post/lemmy.world/10065818
Nope. Lots of upvotes, while the whataboutism posts are down voted into the negatives.
There are quite a few that believe what Israel is doing is genocide, and that what Hamas did was justified by Israel’s actions.
What Israel is doing is genocide. But I haven’t seen people saying Hamas was justified in their most heinous acts.
I don’t doubt there are war crimes being committed, but I don’t think I buy that it’s genocide. Genocide requires systemic intent, otherwise isn’t basically everything genocide?
If you haven’t seen systemic intent, you either haven’t paid attention or your news sources are very biased. That’s literally why Israel has been getting so much heat from other countries.
There is undoubtedly systemic intent. You don’t just accidentally bomb entire neighborhoods and refugee camps and hospitals and homes and schools. You certainly don’t accidentally shoot videos of celebrating the destruction of said neighborhoods and then post it on Telegram for everyone to link and share. You don’t abduct civilians from another location to use as hostages.
Announcing that over 1 million people have to flee south within 24 hours is already a humanitarian crisis, but then they bombed the evacuation routes, refugee camps, hospitals, indiscriminately leveled entire blocks, killed a record number of journalists, pushed the line farther south, and generally repeated all of the above. Not systematic enough?
Yes, unfortunately. They always say ‘I’m not an antisemite, I’m just anti-Zionist’, but in practice their beliefs are indistinguishable.
I have never seen anti-zionism beliefs similar to antisemitism. In fact, if someone mentions anti-zionism, it’s an indicator that they’re talking specifically about the governmental practices of Israel.
People equating anti-zionism to antisemitism are usually being antisemitic themselves by tying Israel’s actions to all Jews.
Nazis have always substituted ‘Israelis’ or ‘Zionists’ for ‘Jews’ when they need to hide in public. The fact that you think you’ve never seen it only indicates that you aren’t very good at detecting it. It also means that you’re carving out an enormous space for Nazis to operate here with your approval that requires almost no effort.
That’s a really convenient excuse to disregard anyone critical of Israel as nazis. Sorry, but I’m not going to condemn someone of being a Nazi just because. Nazis also really like the American flag for some reason too. But I don’t assume everyone with an American flag is a Nazi.
The vast majority of people who are anti-zionist are not Nazis. I hope you realize that because otherwise you’re going to have a really hateful, skewed world view.
Did I say “anyone critical of Israel”?
I said that Nazis have always done that. When Nazis do it, they aren’t being “critical of Israel,” they’re still Nazis doing Nazi shit. I’m telling you that the world is more complicated than you’re allowing, and you’re insisting that I must represent one of only two possible simplistic realities. I’m sorry the world is more complicated than you’d like.
If the only thing you’re doing in assessing whether something is criticism or racism is seeing whether it’s framed as about Jews or Israelis, you’re carving out space for Nazis to operate here. It is trivial to repackage antisemitism as anti-Zionism. Racist blood libel is still racist blood libel when you change the labels. Insisting that any statement is non-racist if it references Israel gives cover to Nazis. You’re not doing enough. Anti-racists who are also critical of the Israeli government should be horrified at the thought of Nazis being allowed to launder racist bullshit through their liberation movements.
I think your inferring a lot of shit I didn’t say and I think you’re assuming a lot about me.
One can be anti-zionistic and not be a Nazi. That doesn’t mean that I’m blind to bad faith discourse. But I’m also not going to condemn people with reckless abandon. In the same way that most who believe in Israel’s right to exist don’t approve of Israel’s genocide. But some do. And some will even go so far as accuse any criticism of Israel as antisemitism. And that feels a lot like what you’re doing. I don’t know if that’s your intention, but that’s really what it sounds like.
“Insisting that any statement is non-racist if it references Israel gives cover to Nazis.”
THIS sounds like a really convenient excuse to disregard “anyone critical of Israel.”
I’m going to assume the best out of you, and assume you don’t mean it that way. But I think you should take your own advice. Because you’re giving a lot of space for Islamophobes to operate.
I’m assuming that you’re a decent person who cares about Palestinians and hates Nazis.
I’ve seen far more people saying that people are saying that than actual people saying it. In fact, the few times I’ve looked at specific claims about public figures they’ve said the opposite and it’s been a false assumption that they’re denouncing all criticism of Israel. It’s probably really only true in large numbers on the Israeli far-right and maybe Christian Fascists (who are lying anyway). Almost no one thinks that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic.
Here’s your statement:
That statement is so broad that it captures genuine critics of the Israeli government… and some Nazi shit. It’s so broad that I think you’re (very unintentionally) giving cover to Nazis who are framing their racism in terms of Israel. You then said that the Nazis probably aren’t many of the people talking about Israel. To which I’ll say (and I’m sure you’d agree): any Nazi shit is too much Nazi shit.
You’re saying that it’s false that criticism of Israel is inherently racist, and I agree with you. The other extreme, that it’s impossible to be racist so long as you mention Israel, is also false. That’s especially important now because Nazis know that they can smuggle racist shit into public discussions. It’s more important to assess statements and arguments on their merits than just seeing if something is “Israel-coded” because Nazi scumfucks are around doing Nazi shit pretending to not be Nazis.
I definitely have on here. There are a lot of people that say they’re anti-Zionist that then go on to blame all Jews. Or say the ones in New York are the good Jews.
So you disproved your own claims? That’s a novel debate tactic. Not sure it’s going to work out though.
I’m not sure which claim you’re referring to.
I believe you.
Anti Zionism is Antisemitism. Full stop. I’ve seen self hating Jews even try to curry favor by agreeing with the bigots but ultimately if you don’t have Israel, you’ve got millions of dead Jews and 10/7 just reinforces that for anyone who has half of a brain.