- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/794993
Archived version: https://archive.ph/YHzBc
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20230728005938/https://www.reuters.com/world/us-intelligence-report-says-china-likely-supplying-tech-russian-military-2023-07-27/
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Was this not a given? I remember something about weird Chinese military Supply train routes in the early months of the war
Sure was, but now there is US document publically stating that. The weight someone wants to give it is up to them.
Fair enough. I’m curious how much of this equipment is more shitty outdated weaponry cloned from Russian weapons.
Yes but my moron friend from college is convinced that China isn’t helping Russia at all and that Ukraine is full of Nazis and the west is the real enemy
So no? It’s not a given unless you have a functioning brain
I guess “working frontal lobe” is a pretty high bar these days, you’re right. The 2 people who downvoted you seem to lack them, that’s for sure.
He probably believes socialism CAN work and ignores all the previous failed attempts.
No need to whataboutism.
There is a need when they have nothing else to say lol
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Socialism can work, Cuba has better life expectancy and more rights for women and lgbtq people than the US. Vietnam, Laos, and China all are moving forward gradually toward complete worker ownership of the means of production. The dprk has survived a 70 year siege from the global hegemon after it destroyed all their infrastructure and killed 20 percent of its civilian population.
So many people defending socialism and communism. Thinking “we can make it work” and spouting off statistics that they read somewhere and not drawing the correlation of left wing and communism/socialism. 2 points to make here:
History is written by those who have hanged. This means the information that makes it out of the communist countries is curated to sound better than it is. The statistics are lies. The politicians are corrupt and will do anything to secure their power and will not stop at eliminating their opposition and vocal people. This is happening in the US. Recent US political news sounds vaguely familiar. Just like the history books in the US fails to delve into the REAL history of Republicans and Democrats and who did what. The left controls the education system and now we have a whole generation that believe the lies they have been told. Lies that are either blatant or through omission. All anybody has to do is real research and they will find the truth is not what they were taught. You can’t see the forest from the trees. The ones claiming that “we can make it work” and buying into the lies, can’t see the crap happening before their very eyes. They have been conditioned to believe that the good guys are winning. I am not here to take sides of right vs left. I am just saying what I see.
Oh okay you’re a conspiratorial CHUD, got it.
Anti-communist “leftists” and liberals take note that these are your allies.
“Dont believe statistics” lol, statistics lie, and they lie much less than whatever anecdotes and rhetoric they have you huffing.
When Russia was considered a super power, this would have been news. Now that they’re known as a paper tiger, this isn’t surprising.
I think a paper tiger is even giving them too much credit at this point.
Like once a year we get an article about how the us military is too reliant on Chinese parts in their supply chain lol
How many different sarcastic shocked gifs do we have?
Why did you expect China to follow Western sanctions?
And in other news millions of US arms to Ukraine keep ending up in Africa. But let’s talk about China helping Russia even though we already new this was going to happen from the start.
Source on this?
“China is helping Russia evade Western sanctions”
Uh, even if this is true, so what? China isn’t beholden to the west? The notions of supremacy are unreal with American media.
It’s interesting though as weak Russia is in China’s favor. But it seems that they choosing short-time gain of cheap gas/oil instead for now.
A weak Russia wouldn’t distract the flailing US empire’s focus while China continues to overtake the US. China is absolutely interested in a strong Russia.
It’s currently under question whether China will ever overtake the US in GDP. If you’re solely projecting based on the assumption that current growth will continue that is a sensible conclusion, but it’s a faulty one. First and foremost, China has a much older demographic makeup that will be a drag on economic grow. Second, the birthrate is significantly lower than the US (1.28 in China vs 1.64 in the US in 2020), where 2.1 is replacement. Last, the US has decent amounts of immigration that help make up the difference between births and replacement, while China is experiencing negative migration rates. China and the US are both attempting policy changes, but haven’t had much success.
Russia has the GDP of Italy. It isnt a great way to measure productive capacity. China has overtaken the US in productive capacity already.
I’m not talking about Russia, though they have the same demographic issues without the strong economy and with high rates of corruption. China does indeed lead in manufacturing, but not in overall GDP. There is no guarantee they will retain that lead either.
I’ll breK it down for you.
GDP is not the best measure of how large an economy is doing. That was why I referenced Russia.
A joke to illustrate why:
Two economicists are walking down a sidewalk. They see a dog shit. One pays the other 20 dollars to eat it. A spectator asks in horror why the man ate dogshit. He says “I felt it was important to add 20 dollars to the GDP”.
China does indeed lead in manufacturing, but not in overall GDP. There is no guarantee they will retain that lead either.
Oh, I agree. At some point in the 22nd century a pan-african alliance will probably overtake them.
GDP is not the best measure of how large an economy is doing.
What is the best measurement, then? Manufacturing capacity alone isn’t a good measurement, since that is just one part of the economy. Most advice I’ve heard is to draw from many different indices to produce a fuller picture of an economy, keeping in mind the strengths and weaknesses of each individual number.
Uh, even if this is true, so what? China isn’t beholden to the west?
They obviously aren’t, but also the west isn’t beholden to China. We can and should react if they’re behaving in a way that’s dramatically aligned against us.
Maybe stop starting wars around the world and you’ll find less alignment against you?
My country hasn’t started any wars since WW2.
My country hasn’t started any wars since WW2.
Yep, that one. Were there other WW2s?
Finland has just joined the world’s most aggressive military alliance. Your “my country” shtick is out of date now. You’re part of the group of thug countries.
As a Canadian American who currently hates Russia and what Russia feels is an appropriate reaction to Ukraine seeking to join Nato. Not to mention the number of children they have killed, civilians they have openly executed…I couldn’t hate Russia more than I do right now. Used to respect them and like Putin. Anyways, even though it sucks, Russia and China have every right to work together. We can’t control things like this. However, I hope Ukraine kicks Russia’s ass.
China lied about its actions and is supporting the aggressor of a despicable invasion.
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Yeah I have to stay off of here. Maoist lemmygrad tankies give me diarrhea.
I know the implication here is that “maoist lemmygrad tankies” are so gross they give you diarrhea but it really comes off as “I get stress diarrhia reading left wing content online” which isn’t very flattering.
That’s not my hill to die on, but what exactly about authoritarian ethno states scratching each other’s back makes it “left wing”?
This guy is a typical lemmygrad user spouting off bullshit tankie talking points. Don’t even bother.
A woman from hexbear actually. Not everyone on the internet is a man, you can afford to not be sexist and stop perceiving man as the default. I hope reading my conditional defense of historical and existing somewhat successful socialist projects hasn’t given you too much diarrhea.
The USSR famously subsidized and gave autonomy to the non Russian SSRs. Russofication was obviously a problem but much less of a problem than during the monarchy or the post union capitalist state. There is a reason why the non Russian SSRs voted at higher rates than the Russian SSR to stay in the USSR during the referendum before the illegitimate dissolution of the soviet union.
https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1920/11/13.htm
China famously exempted all ethnic minorities from the one child policy.
Yeah but we are today, and I fail to see what’s actually “left wing” about the present situation. Is Russia (a fascist kleptocracy) being helped by China (state capitalist and only communist in name) somehow contributing to spreading socialism ideals? In retrospect that was maybe a rhetorical question.
(state capitalist and only communist in name)
I would read an English translation of “On the Governance of China” as well as this https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
Even Lenin acknowledged that you can’t get rid of capitalism quickly, and China started from an even worse position than the USSR.
Empires competing and creating multipolarity benefits China, other socialist nations, and the imperial periphery looking to break free. Keep in mind that mao’s three worlds theory is a major influence on some socialist factions in China, even if it is reductionist. Russia maintaining strength to challenge the US(including if it comes through a defeat or truce in ukraine)(note that China is pushing for a truce which would maintain Russia’s ability to defend itself from NATO better, but supplying them to maintain their strength) is a good thing in their calculus, and I haven’t seen any compelling rebuttals to it.
Realistically, China, as an hegemony seeking super power, would do the same thing no matter what century and flavor of autocratic regime is at the helm at that particular time. No need to make it more than what it is, really.
as an hegemony seeking super power
Citation needed.
Also you didn’t really respond to anything said.
Except I am anarcho-syndicalist and aggressively socially left-wing. But I will never understand anyone that holds China or Russia in anything approaching high regard.
Edit: And, no. My comment didn’t come across as that. You obviously just wanted to read it as such.Except I am anarcho-syndicalist and aggressively socially left-wing
If youre still specifying social and economic policy as seperate in this context than you’ve still got a lot more reading and political development to do as a leftist.
But I will never understand anyone that holds China or Russia in anything approaching high regard.
The soviet union defeated the Nazis, and China is defeating the US primarily through peaceful means Both massively improved quality of life and political rights. If those aren’t things to be conditionally admirable about as a leftist than you seem a very strange leftist.
Edit: And, no. My comment didn’t come across as that. You obviously just wanted to read it as such.
Please explain how “reading socialist comments gives me diarrhia” should be taken.
Well, you’re blatantly wrong about political freedom in China (seriously? LOL). Also, the Soviet Union alone didn’t defeat the Nazis so fuck off with your tankie revisionist history. You seriously have no clue what you’re talking about.
Furthermore, because you’ve outed yourself as a tankie, this conversation is over. I will not engage with the likes of you, a pseudointellectual.Well, you’re blatantly wrong about political freedom in China
Oh, were they better under the KMT or the colonial Japanese? Gotta say bud, your coming off as not very historically literate.
Also, the Soviet Union alone didn’t defeat the Nazis so fuck off with your tankie revisionist history.
Didn’t say they did. They just spearheaded it, being responsible for 80 percent of german casualties, and losing 26 million people for their troubles. Britain or the US wouldn’t have been able to defeat the nazis by themselves. Continental Europe would still be the third reich without those dastardly tankies.
Furthermore, because you’ve outed yourself as a tankie, this conversation is over. I will not engage with the likes of you, a pseudointellectual.
From the towering intellect that thought the KMT or the colonial Japanese provided more rights than the PRC.
Also “outed myself”? Really? That sure implies revealing deception, and I’ve been nothing but open and honest about my views.
Nuance is for good countries like the USA, UK and Australia. With them you can say when they fall short of their ideals that they are trying. With evil countries like the USSR or China they don’t deserve historical understanding or nuance so it’s either perfect or terrible, clearly.
You can’t have endless war without three really solid participants!
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I would be more surprised if they weren’t.
Iirc that special agent(FSB agent?), That turned talked about a secret train that was used to transport material.
YEah, no surprise there. See past the veil, Rus never changed when the un-dethroneable president is “ex” KGB.
Actually it did change. The life expectancy plummeted dramatically during the 90s after the collapse of the USSR and is still recovering, and the whole ideology of the government has shifted. It is a completely different country to what it was when the KGB was a thing.
Do you live there? If not, then you only know what information is fed to the public. The thing is, the information we have, is curated to appear better than it actually is.
Isn’t the USA supplying cluster bombs to Ukraine?
Yep, and that’s a good thing.
American cluster bombs are still killing children in Laos. They’re a stupid weapon.
Russia invaded Laos?!
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Russia is already using them
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I’ll defer to the defenders WRT what weapons they need.
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Russia is not using them. Only Ukraine has been.
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So you’re okay with them using chemical weapons, petal mines (which they have), bioweapons… just anything goes, right? The people of Crimea and Donbas are “defenders”, can they do anything too?
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/08/25/growing-civilian-toll-russian-cluster-munition-attacks
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Chemical weapons: no, due to their effects easily leaving the AOR. Petal mines: yes. Crimea and the Donbas are occupied Ukrainian territory.
It is well documented, by Human Rights Watch and others, that **the Ukrainian military **has used cluster munitions. There is nothing to support a claim that Russia has done so. The Pentagon has rejected the earlier claimed evidence of Russian cluster munition attacks:
Commenting on videos depicting alleged Russian cluster munition use, DOD officials stated during a March 1, 2022 press conference that “we’ve seen the same video that you have but we have not assessed that it is definitive with respect to the use of cluster munitions. So we are not in a position to confirm the use of cluster munitions at this time.” In a similar manner, a DOD official stated during March 3, 2022, press conference that DOD was still unable to confirm Russia’s use of cluster munitions.
- So you’ve an issue with the effects of a weapon leaving the AOR but no issue with a weapon that still kills people over 70 years later.
Get some consistency man, you’re all over the place.
Your Pentagon cite is from when the conflict was less than a month old. That is worthless.
It may surprise you to know that in a thread where I advocate for the US giving Ukraine cluster munitions, that I don’t care that Ukraine has been using cluster munitions.
As stated by another, your Pentagon source is out of date. It’s pretty funny though that you reject HRW saying Russia is using them, but use HRW as your source that Ukraine is.
WRT chemical weapons: different things are different. When you can contain things in an AOR, I’m less concerned about the lingering effects. Areas can be closed off and cleared, especially when you’re the one that dropped them. That’s way less possible with chemical weapons, that will literally drift with the wind.
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Yeah but it is not suitable for rage inducing title, so they choose China instead.
The double standards and american exceptionalism of the people that post CNN/WaPo/NYT news articles on foreign events…
The US has been very clear on their support for Ukrainian defenses (probably for money, never for moral reasons), while China has been faking a peace negotiatior role.
If you adopt a specific outlook, the duplicity is less stark.
Russia is attacking a sovereign nation and when they took land, they took people. To most, that makes them the bad guys.
Backing away from that and making this a geopolitical chess game, both players have coaches. Sounds fair.
Geopolitics is never about fairness. The greater good is left to those who have powers. Iraq was a sovereign nation; but attacked, causing the deaths of their citizen, for no legitimate casus bellli. Just invent a reason, how about WMD? Yeah, that’s good enough. And Iraqi are still left to obscurity and there’s nothing they could do about it.
Iraq was absolutely fucked, but what Russia is doing in Ukraine is open genocide. Their media and politicians constantly talk about eliminating Ukrainian identity. The US media and politicians constantly talked about bringing democracy to Iraq (which it still kind of has).
The situations are comparable, but they are very different. An honest commentator would acknowledge the horrors of both if pressed, while also being able to qualify and separate that horror.
The US media and politicians constantly talked about bringing democracy to Iraq (which it still kind of has).
This doesn’t make sense and won’t likely happen. You either conquer them or left them unstable enough (in this case, fighting each other) so it doesn’t matter if you’re there or not. The current situation is a plus to geopolical chess players, for their national interests.
For context, Iraq is just a chess piece . it can be a pawn, bishop, rook, queen, or king or whatever. The end game is for these big players to win. Depending on strategy, Iraq can be pawned, sacrificed, or promoted to queen or whatever as long as the real player can win the game.
And this apply to other countries as well, not just Iraq, If you got what I mean. At the end of the day, its all about the real players trying to stay winning so their national interest will remain protected.
bringing democracy to Iraq
USA didn’t bring democracy to Iraq. They destroyed it. They fired all of Saddam’s army and then wondered why groups like ISIS gained hold. That constant media frenzy about “we’re winning”, Bush’s speech, WMDs, and the de-Baathification was full on propaganda. The best type of propaganda is the type where you don’t notice it and that you think you’re immune to it.
Both USA and Russia lied about their premises. They both use “liberation” and “freeing the people” as their pathetic excuse for invading a country.
It’s the people who suffer these wars (yes, Russian people too. Not all of them support the war, and i speculate that younger generation doesn’t support it). The governments just get their big piles of money.
but what Russia is doing in Ukraine is open genocide
This is just immature and gross. Don’t belittle the crime of genocide because you lack the literacy to express your indoctrinated rage.
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And you shouldn’t minimize Russian crimes, or their openly stated motivations to eliminate Ukrainian identity because of your indoctrinated contrarianism.
“But Iraq!” is literally all these people have. As if two things can’t be bad at the same time.
The reason people keep bringing up Iraq is not for some “whataboutism”. It’s simpler and more significant than that: it shows a hypocrisy, and double-standards. It’s not that people are saying “what Russia is doing isn’t bad because the USA did bad” (that is whataboutism, by the way); they’re saying that the USA’s (and the world’s) feigned outrage over Russia is hypocritical because of what the USA has done. Nobody held (or intends to hold) the USA to account for what it’s done, yet everyone is demanding Russia be torn apart, torn down, everyone tried for war crimes, etc. It’s a double-standard. If the USA had been held to account for what it did, then people wouldn’t be saying “but Iraq” (and if they did, that truly would be simple whataboutism). But until there is fair application of standards, it’s fair to call the USA on its hypocrisy when it wants to pretend to be the world’s police while simultaneously (ironically, in line with behavior of actual police) causing tremendous harm itself.
Yes agreed. My perspective is the latter but I can see the more myopic view creating a bad vs good narrative.
Ukraine hasn’t been a sovereign nation since America funded and trained Nazis to overthrow it. Now it’s just a client state of the US that was used to try to “weaken Russia”.
Russia is the aggressor and the US stands with Ukraine and helps them.
China pretends to be ‘neutral’ in a war so glaringly having a country violate the sovereignty of Ukraine but then secretly support the aggressor.
What is so difficult to understand? Or do you purposefully try to muddy the waters by invoking “whatabout…?” and see if the countries supporting Ukraine could be slandered?
This war could not be more clear in who is the aggressor and who try to help the violated. The fact you feel the need to point in all directions and try to steer attention away from where we should be paying attention to is in itself a despicable act, only the logical conclusion I am left with is that you somehow feel aligned with russia and it’s war path against others. You created a moral outrage where other should feel bad but the only thing you have truly done is put a stain on your character. Pathetic and shameful to be basically rooting for russia at this point.
That’s a lot of talking for someone who wants to use clusterbombs…
US is a murderous invader that has invaded Iraq, Afganistan in my lifetime and continues to bomb many places on earth.
Who will support victims of American agression?
You’re not wrong…
This is just more whataboutism.
This war could not be more clear in who is the aggressor
Ofc it could be clearer. For example: The US invasion of Iraq was a an actually unprovoked invasion
You’re just late at learning about a border conflict at a time of horrible escalation and don’t have anything but imperialist propagandaof a meddling party to draw conclusions from.
And no I don’t have the emotional energy to spare to discuss it here I just want to signal much needed dissent to people stumbling over this thread
You prohibiting current actions because of <fill in the blank>. This attitude might seem nobel or informed but whatabout is your true argument and it gets you nowhere.
The fact you sow doubt on the invasion of Ukraine as ‘perhaps russia had a point to start killing civilians’ is despicable and tells me you are a russian puppet or bad faith actor, just to muddy the waters.
Imagine being against unjust invasions (and there is a point to be made for that) but when clear and present danger presents itself you use unjust invasions to justify the war of aggression perpetuated by russia. The irony probably slips right by you. Well, it would if your mindset is to ‘level’ all events as ‘the same’. Pathetic and dubious at best.
This war could not be more clear in who is the aggressor and who try to help the violated.
US/NATO is the aggressor. Russia has liberated the people undergoing ethnic cleansing by Ukraine’s Nazis. Educate yourself. Grow up and get your head out of American propaganda.
Look here, another russian troll wanting to make fascist russia the good guy. The only good thing about russia is nothing, there is no good thing. A country of criminals and thugs. It will take a generation to repair the horror and criminal behaviour of that vile country.
Criminals, all of them. May russia collapse and turn to oblivion, we do not need that patch or moronic criminals in this world.
I’m Irish and not a troll. Where are you from?
Russia doesn’t meet the definition of fascism, Ukraine does.
A country of criminals and thugs.
Now just racism.
Look here, a troll pretending to be Irish. No shame, you have no shame. Defending the fascists from russia. What a pathetic little troll you are.
How is saying that close military allies are supporting each other ‘AmErIcAn ExCePtIoNaLiSm’?
Fuck off back to lemmygrad.
He is on lemmygrad, that’s how federation works.
If you want to be in a neoliberal echo chamber, you should move to beehaw. Or back to reddit.
Maybe you’re too stupid to understand, but just because you don’t have to make another account to participate in different instances doesn’t mean anyone cares about your despot-worshiping bullshit outside of your home instance.
Seriously, if the .ml instance is just as infested with these disgusting people as lemmygrad, there’s no point to us participating in the discussion. Don’t engage with tankies.
Pretty weird to talk about echo chambers when someone’s calling out zero value circlejerk comments.
We need to ostracize China in the same way as Russia, unfortunately. This is too bad because without this underhanded alliance between China and Russia, I would be kinda okay with China. Yeah, they’re not perfect, but at least they’re not Russia.
Hard to do when western nations like the US and Aus have built a system that ties China into their trade and manufacturing chains.
Yup. Untangling China will/would be much more difficult than dropping Russia was. The latter happened in a year, and with mostly positive ramifications. None of the scare scenarios that tankies talked about a year ago actually happened. We were supposed to get rid of using fossil fuels anyway.
Getting rid of Chinese products would lead to some positive outcomes – less unemployment in Europe being the most obvious one. But it’s an entirely different scale. Russia exported pretty much just alt-right political influence and gasoline. We’ll happily do without either. China has been the leading producers of a lot of important low and high tech for a lot of time.
Why would they do differently? Ignoring any moral arguments, Russia occupying NATO makes NATO or US aggression against China less likely to happen.
Three things. First, China had explicitly declared that it would not supply arms. Second, it has tried to cast itself as a neutral mediator and peacemaker. Third, it has a broader stated policy of respecting territorial integrity and sovereignty.
Given that NATO is providing arms for Ukraine and NATO can’t make its weapons without China it does seem fair to also provide components to Russia.
Third, it has a broader stated policy of respecting territorial integrity and sovereignty.
It can’t do this without embargoing US weapons manufacturers, but that would be catastrophic so it makes sense that it is providing everyone instead of just the US.
