You really can compare that to (and justify) what happend at October 7? At this point I’ll kindly ask you to agree that you are applying different judgement systems for 2 nations. You allow palestinians be bloody monsters but you require that israeli would not touch them no matter what happens.
No, that isn’t the only justification. You are ignoring the apartheid and settler colonialism and focusing on one or two other things I said.
Maybe we should ask hamas to provide proofs that they fire missiles at military objects in Israel?
I mean any rocket at tel aviv could be aimed at a military target, the IDF headquarters is in the middle of a densely populated area. But yeah, a lot of those rockets are simply to hurt anyone they can. Again, do I need to point you at the people killed by the various other organizations that used terror to fight for freedom? It’s horrible, yes, but the way to stop it is by giving people their freedom.
There is a contradiction when people first expect the western world to take the side of Gaza in order to save lifes, and then say that the same western world really sell defense equipment for profit only and not to save lifes.
I can expect someone to do the right thing, but also recognize that they have no morals and so they won’t do it.
Worth it to get rid of Israel? Or worth it to leave a terrorist organization in power of 2 million people alone?
I don’t think you understand what it would be like if the Palestinians won. Even in the best case scenario for the Palestinians, it wouldn’t be Hamas completely taking over Israel. That is definitely physically impossible. It would be both groups come together and negotiate, and either Israel turns into a secular state and swallows the west bank and gaza, or a new secular state is formed that encompasses the whole area. That’s what “from the river to the sea” means.
You are ignoring the apartheid and settler colonialism
I’m ignoring it because it bleaks when compared to terrorism. Another reason is like I said, I can’t see how territorial confinement could affect adequate people to the point they would prefer suicide over trying to live further. Either there is some horrible details about the apartheid that I don’t know (and tons of media don’t tell, only mentioning “losing homes” and “unable to use certain roads”) or they are not exactly adequate.
I mean any rocket at tel aviv could be aimed at a military target
These rockets apparently don’t have enough accuracy for anyone to be able to aim them anywhere.
Again, do I need to point you at the people killed by the various other organizations that used terror to fight for freedom? It’s horrible, yes
It’s not as horrible as the way hamas uses its civilians to act as both living shield and terrorist recruits. Children are being told they need to kill jews from the tv, and parents tell them they would be proud of they become “heroes” that way.
I can expect someone to do the right thing, but also recognize that they have no morals and so they won’t do it.
Especially when they have a record, right? Those other conflicts you mentioned were ended when they recognized and supported the oppressed parties, if I get it right. But at the same time they have no morals, sure.
It would be both groups come together and negotiate
I don’t think you understand that odds of that happening. I can imagine Israel saying “sure, you killed quite many our people and we won’t forget that, but we are ready to negotiate if it means end of terrorism”. But can I imagine hamas saying anything like “sure, we vowed to destroy Israel and trained terrorists just for that for generations, but if it means we won’t need to do it anymore, and if we get some land we always asked for, we are ready to negotiate”? No. Because these people never showed that they even cared for their own population, and negotiations would mean they would need to actually work towards establishing a proper state and take care of themselves. If they couldn’t do the same before that, they will never do it properly. Not hamas.
It’s not as horrible as the way hamas uses its civilians to act as both living shield and terrorist recruits. Children are being told they need to kill jews from the tv, and parents tell them they would be proud of they become “heroes” that way.
Ok lets look at this claim. The main radicalizing factor isn’t TV, it’s bombs killing children’s families, and those bombs are a million times more effective at turning people into terrorists than antisemetic TV shows. Hamas only has ~25,000 soldiers though, while Israel propagandizes its civilians and forces most of them into either jail or military service when they reach military age. They also put military infrastructure in crowded civilian areas just like Hamas. If you’re worried about turning people into terrorists and using them as human shields, this is obviously worse right?
Also, I notice you brought up Russia earlier. Ukraine set up bases in civilian areas, including schools. But we still consider Russia the bad guys, for obvious reasons.
Especially when they have a record, right? Those other conflicts you mentioned were ended when they recognized and supported the oppressed parties, if I get it right. But at the same time they have no morals, sure.
Sure man, I don’t really think its worth talking about it. We might decide to sacrifice profits for a moral high ground, who knows. That would be great, but I personally don’t think its likely.
I don’t think you understand that odds of that happening.
No I’m aware that it’s very very very low.
Because these people never showed that they even cared for their own population, and negotiations would mean they would need to actually work towards establishing a proper state and take care of themselves.
They literally did. How do you think Hamas got elected over Fatah. It wasn’t because Palestinians love terrorism or any racist shit like that. Straight from the wikipedia page:
In the 1990s, some 85% of its budget was allocated to the provision of social services. Hamas has been called perhaps the most significant social services actor in Palestine. By 2000, Hamas or its affiliated charities ran roughly 40% of the social institutions in the West Bank and Gaza and, with other Islamic charities, by 2005, was supporting 120,000 individuals with monthly financial support in Gaza. Part of the appeal of these institutions is that they fill a vacuum in the administration by the PLO of the Palestinian territories, which had failed to cater to the demand for jobs and broad social services, and is widely viewed as corrupt. As late as 2005, the budget of Hamas, drawing on global charity contributions, was mostly tied up in covering running expenses for its social programmes, which extended from the supply of housing, food and water for the needy to more general functions such as financial aid, medical assistance, educational development and religious instruction.
And how long do you mean by generations, cause Hamas has only resorted to terrorism against civilians from the 1990s. Hamas literally has in its charter that it is willing to accept a 2 state solution on the 1967 lines, so yes it would absolutely be willing to negotiate.
There is something wrong with the subject if it needs those for anyone to understand the bad nature. You don’t need that with terrorism. Hamas kills -> people die -> hamas must be stopped.
The main radicalizing factor isn’t TV
Then how come it needs to be about how everyone should kill jews?
while Israel propagandizes its civilians and forces most of them into either jail or military service when they reach military age
An army is very different from what terrorists do.
They also put military infrastructure in crowded civilian areas just like Hamas.
Well they also put meaningful effort into protecting all of that. I wouldn’t imagine anyone would do that otherwise.
Ukraine set up bases in civilian areas, including schools. But we still consider Russia the bad guys, for obvious reasons.
Is that sarcasm? Do I need to explain how Russia knowingly bombs non-military targets with no military personnel?
They literally did. How do you think Hamas got elected over Fatah.
It was mentioned (here too I think) that those elections were not exactly what you’d expect from proper elections, and yet you want to use this as an argument…
Straight from the wikipedia page
Well look at how things changed. What was the moment hamas decided to go full terrorist and spend resources on arming up, and how did Palestinians feel about that?
Hamas literally has in its charter that it is willing to accept a 2 state solution on the 1967 lines, so yes it would absolutely be willing to negotiate.
Straight from the wikipedia page:
Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential;
Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable.
Ok. Settler colonialism is bad because it is slow ethnic cleansing, and ethnic cleansing is bad. This alone justifies armed resistance, but the settler colonialism is enforced by an apartheid system that treats Palestinians as less than Jewish settlers and restricts their access to their own land with checkpoints, walls, and armed guards. This justifies armed resistance even more.
Hamas kills -> people die -> hamas must be stopped
That’s bullshit lmao. Israel kills -> people die -> Israel must be stopped. The north during the civil war kills -> people die -> the union must be stopped. Americans kill germans and japanese people in ww2 -> people die -> the US must be stopped.
See how I can also massively oversimplify the situation.
Then how come it needs to be about how everyone should kill jews?
If I had to guess, it just changes the focus of the hate from Israel to all jews, but again the main factor that leads to the hate is the horrific conditions they live in. Nothing else can come close to that. But again, if you really cared about turning kids into terrorists you would be criticizing the Israeli practices of conscripting people and sending them to the west bank.
An army is very different from what terrorists do.
How so. Shouldn’t an oppresive state actor with backing from the US be held to a higher standard than a resistance movement consisting of a bunch of angry zoomers led by some rich guys in qatar? Yet if you look at the actual actions that they take, Israel tends to be worse in a lot of ways.
Is that sarcasm? Do I need to explain how Russia knowingly bombs non-military targets with no military personnel?
No, it’s not sarcasm, and you don’t have to explain that. I know that Russia purposefully kills civilians. You do however have to show me evidence that every single one of the hospitals and schools that Israel has bombed is a valid military target (spoiler alert: there is none in most cases), and explain why when Russia does it, its bad, but when Israel targets civilians, its fine actually and it isn’t terrorism.
It was mentioned (here too I think) that those elections were not exactly what you’d expect from proper elections, and yet you want to use this as an argument…
It wasn’t a proper election sure, and Hamas should have won far fewer seats based on the percent of votes, but the point is that they had a large amount of public support.
Well look at how things changed. What was the moment hamas decided to go full terrorist and spend resources on arming up, and how did Palestinians feel about that?
Starting in the 1990s they did more and more terrorism. And since the elections were in 2006, obviously a lot of Palestinians didn’t care too much about that.
Destroying Israel and establishing an Islamic theocracy in Palestine is essential; Negotiated resolutions of Jewish and Palestinian claims to the land are unacceptable.
Straight from the wikipedia page:
Hamas began negotiating with Israel and the 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.[71] In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.[72][73][74][75] Hamas’s repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years[76]) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many as being consistent with a two-state solution,[77][78][79][80] while others state that Hamas retains the long-term objective of establishing one state in former Mandatory Palestine.
So yes, they are willing to negotiate. And some people think that they aren’t willing to accept a 2 state solution, but that doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t at least try to negotiate for peace. If hamas keeps attacking, Israel has the military power to make things go right back to the way it was before. The reason Israel doesn’t negotiate is because it isn’t interested in peace, it is interested in cleansing all palestinians from the west bank and gaza and taking their land.
I’m not sure what the ANC is, but the Viet Cong were absolutely not justified in their actions. They were part of an attempt to force communism on South Vietnam. In effect, they used force of arms in lieu of democracy to get what they wanted. They committed atrocities and were unjustified in their actions.
Any group that rejects political and democratic solutions to its problems in favor of violence is unjustified. Violence is a last resort.
Any group that rejects political and democratic solutions to its problems in favor of violence is unjustified.
Nice, we should have just voted the Nazis out then. Algeria and Vietnam should have just voted out the colonial powers. The ANC should have just voted out South African apartheid. Violence is a last resort sure, and Palestinians (along with those other groups) are at a point where they have to turn to it.
Resorting to violence when democracy fails is different to outright rejecting democracy and going straight for violence, which is what Hamas and other Islamist terror groups in that region do. Hamas (and, I guess all Palestinians, since you’re lumping them together?) have rejected political solutions to their conflict with Israel because they do not desire to coexist, they want to eject all Israeli Jews from the region, or, if possible, slaughter them. They don’t desire peace. They desire war and terror and the genocide of the Jews.
I guess all Palestinians, since you’re lumping them together?
There’s a difference between saying that all Palestinians are Hamas and saying that the only option Palestinians have left is violence.
Resorting to violence when democracy fails is different to outright rejecting democracy and going straight for violence, which is what Hamas and other Islamist terror groups in that region do.
Can you explain how you expect them to negotiate with Israel peacefully when Israel has shown that it is not interested in peace by continuing to build illegal settlements in the west bank, effectively killing a two state solution? They can’t peacefully protest, they’d get shot. They can’t vote Israel out, they aren’t citizens of Israel. The only options left for them is violence. And out of the organizations there, the secular ones like the PFLP and DFLP aren’t as powerful as they used to be so Hamas is the only viable one left.
If there was a way for Palestinians to achieve liberation peacefully, that would be awesome for everyone, but I’m struggling to see how that’s possible.
Hamas killed the two-state solution. Israel bent over backwards to try to compromise with and accommodate the Palestinians, which it had no legal obligation to do, and Hamas and its ilk rejected those offers because they didn’t want two states–they wanted one state, sans Jews.
I’m not a fan of what Israel has been doing in the West Bank, but don’t lie to me and act like those actions are why a two-state solution isn’t working. Palestine didn’t want to exist in a world that included Israel.
don’t lie to me and act like those actions are why a two-state solution isn’t working.
Do you understand how it makes a 2 state solution physically impossible? That’s Israel’s doing. You can’t have a solution that displaces 700,000 people, so you can’t have a 2 state solution.
Israel has never offered a solution that gave Palestinians a right to return. The people displaced in the Nakba and later, and the people born into refugee camps, deserve this right. Israel’s proposed peace solutions are all garbage and unfair, and it is insane to expect Palestinians to be ok with making huge compromises regarding land that they were cleansed from.
they wanted one state, sans Jews.
Hamas? Sure. But don’t pretend that the various secular organizations wanted to ethnically cleanse jews from the area, they didn’t. They supported a secular state solution.
No, that isn’t the only justification. You are ignoring the apartheid and settler colonialism and focusing on one or two other things I said.
I mean any rocket at tel aviv could be aimed at a military target, the IDF headquarters is in the middle of a densely populated area. But yeah, a lot of those rockets are simply to hurt anyone they can. Again, do I need to point you at the people killed by the various other organizations that used terror to fight for freedom? It’s horrible, yes, but the way to stop it is by giving people their freedom.
I can expect someone to do the right thing, but also recognize that they have no morals and so they won’t do it.
I don’t think you understand what it would be like if the Palestinians won. Even in the best case scenario for the Palestinians, it wouldn’t be Hamas completely taking over Israel. That is definitely physically impossible. It would be both groups come together and negotiate, and either Israel turns into a secular state and swallows the west bank and gaza, or a new secular state is formed that encompasses the whole area. That’s what “from the river to the sea” means.
I’m ignoring it because it bleaks when compared to terrorism. Another reason is like I said, I can’t see how territorial confinement could affect adequate people to the point they would prefer suicide over trying to live further. Either there is some horrible details about the apartheid that I don’t know (and tons of media don’t tell, only mentioning “losing homes” and “unable to use certain roads”) or they are not exactly adequate.
These rockets apparently don’t have enough accuracy for anyone to be able to aim them anywhere.
It’s not as horrible as the way hamas uses its civilians to act as both living shield and terrorist recruits. Children are being told they need to kill jews from the tv, and parents tell them they would be proud of they become “heroes” that way.
Especially when they have a record, right? Those other conflicts you mentioned were ended when they recognized and supported the oppressed parties, if I get it right. But at the same time they have no morals, sure.
I don’t think you understand that odds of that happening. I can imagine Israel saying “sure, you killed quite many our people and we won’t forget that, but we are ready to negotiate if it means end of terrorism”. But can I imagine hamas saying anything like “sure, we vowed to destroy Israel and trained terrorists just for that for generations, but if it means we won’t need to do it anymore, and if we get some land we always asked for, we are ready to negotiate”? No. Because these people never showed that they even cared for their own population, and negotiations would mean they would need to actually work towards establishing a proper state and take care of themselves. If they couldn’t do the same before that, they will never do it properly. Not hamas.
Here’s Amnesty international’s report, theres a 280 page report that outlines most of the atrocities that constitute apartheid in it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Here’s a UN article regarding the settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is effectively a slow invasion and ethnic cleansing. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942
Ok lets look at this claim. The main radicalizing factor isn’t TV, it’s bombs killing children’s families, and those bombs are a million times more effective at turning people into terrorists than antisemetic TV shows. Hamas only has ~25,000 soldiers though, while Israel propagandizes its civilians and forces most of them into either jail or military service when they reach military age. They also put military infrastructure in crowded civilian areas just like Hamas. If you’re worried about turning people into terrorists and using them as human shields, this is obviously worse right?
Also, I notice you brought up Russia earlier. Ukraine set up bases in civilian areas, including schools. But we still consider Russia the bad guys, for obvious reasons.
Sure man, I don’t really think its worth talking about it. We might decide to sacrifice profits for a moral high ground, who knows. That would be great, but I personally don’t think its likely.
No I’m aware that it’s very very very low.
They literally did. How do you think Hamas got elected over Fatah. It wasn’t because Palestinians love terrorism or any racist shit like that. Straight from the wikipedia page:
In the 1990s, some 85% of its budget was allocated to the provision of social services. Hamas has been called perhaps the most significant social services actor in Palestine. By 2000, Hamas or its affiliated charities ran roughly 40% of the social institutions in the West Bank and Gaza and, with other Islamic charities, by 2005, was supporting 120,000 individuals with monthly financial support in Gaza. Part of the appeal of these institutions is that they fill a vacuum in the administration by the PLO of the Palestinian territories, which had failed to cater to the demand for jobs and broad social services, and is widely viewed as corrupt. As late as 2005, the budget of Hamas, drawing on global charity contributions, was mostly tied up in covering running expenses for its social programmes, which extended from the supply of housing, food and water for the needy to more general functions such as financial aid, medical assistance, educational development and religious instruction.
And how long do you mean by generations, cause Hamas has only resorted to terrorism against civilians from the 1990s. Hamas literally has in its charter that it is willing to accept a 2 state solution on the 1967 lines, so yes it would absolutely be willing to negotiate.
There is something wrong with the subject if it needs those for anyone to understand the bad nature. You don’t need that with terrorism. Hamas kills -> people die -> hamas must be stopped.
Then how come it needs to be about how everyone should kill jews?
An army is very different from what terrorists do.
Well they also put meaningful effort into protecting all of that. I wouldn’t imagine anyone would do that otherwise.
Is that sarcasm? Do I need to explain how Russia knowingly bombs non-military targets with no military personnel?
It was mentioned (here too I think) that those elections were not exactly what you’d expect from proper elections, and yet you want to use this as an argument…
Well look at how things changed. What was the moment hamas decided to go full terrorist and spend resources on arming up, and how did Palestinians feel about that?
Straight from the wikipedia page:
Ok. Settler colonialism is bad because it is slow ethnic cleansing, and ethnic cleansing is bad. This alone justifies armed resistance, but the settler colonialism is enforced by an apartheid system that treats Palestinians as less than Jewish settlers and restricts their access to their own land with checkpoints, walls, and armed guards. This justifies armed resistance even more.
That’s bullshit lmao. Israel kills -> people die -> Israel must be stopped. The north during the civil war kills -> people die -> the union must be stopped. Americans kill germans and japanese people in ww2 -> people die -> the US must be stopped.
See how I can also massively oversimplify the situation.
If I had to guess, it just changes the focus of the hate from Israel to all jews, but again the main factor that leads to the hate is the horrific conditions they live in. Nothing else can come close to that. But again, if you really cared about turning kids into terrorists you would be criticizing the Israeli practices of conscripting people and sending them to the west bank.
How so. Shouldn’t an oppresive state actor with backing from the US be held to a higher standard than a resistance movement consisting of a bunch of angry zoomers led by some rich guys in qatar? Yet if you look at the actual actions that they take, Israel tends to be worse in a lot of ways.
No, it’s not sarcasm, and you don’t have to explain that. I know that Russia purposefully kills civilians. You do however have to show me evidence that every single one of the hospitals and schools that Israel has bombed is a valid military target (spoiler alert: there is none in most cases), and explain why when Russia does it, its bad, but when Israel targets civilians, its fine actually and it isn’t terrorism.
It wasn’t a proper election sure, and Hamas should have won far fewer seats based on the percent of votes, but the point is that they had a large amount of public support.
Starting in the 1990s they did more and more terrorism. And since the elections were in 2006, obviously a lot of Palestinians didn’t care too much about that.
Straight from the wikipedia page:
Hamas began negotiating with Israel and the 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.[71] In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.[72][73][74][75] Hamas’s repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years[76]) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many as being consistent with a two-state solution,[77][78][79][80] while others state that Hamas retains the long-term objective of establishing one state in former Mandatory Palestine.
So yes, they are willing to negotiate. And some people think that they aren’t willing to accept a 2 state solution, but that doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t at least try to negotiate for peace. If hamas keeps attacking, Israel has the military power to make things go right back to the way it was before. The reason Israel doesn’t negotiate is because it isn’t interested in peace, it is interested in cleansing all palestinians from the west bank and gaza and taking their land.
Wow, guy is seriously trying to justify terrorism.
Yeah. Glad you noticed. Would you say the Viet Cong and the ANC weren’t justified?
I’m not sure what the ANC is, but the Viet Cong were absolutely not justified in their actions. They were part of an attempt to force communism on South Vietnam. In effect, they used force of arms in lieu of democracy to get what they wanted. They committed atrocities and were unjustified in their actions.
Any group that rejects political and democratic solutions to its problems in favor of violence is unjustified. Violence is a last resort.
Nice, we should have just voted the Nazis out then. Algeria and Vietnam should have just voted out the colonial powers. The ANC should have just voted out South African apartheid. Violence is a last resort sure, and Palestinians (along with those other groups) are at a point where they have to turn to it.
Way to completely ignore what I actually wrote.
Resorting to violence when democracy fails is different to outright rejecting democracy and going straight for violence, which is what Hamas and other Islamist terror groups in that region do. Hamas (and, I guess all Palestinians, since you’re lumping them together?) have rejected political solutions to their conflict with Israel because they do not desire to coexist, they want to eject all Israeli Jews from the region, or, if possible, slaughter them. They don’t desire peace. They desire war and terror and the genocide of the Jews.
There’s a difference between saying that all Palestinians are Hamas and saying that the only option Palestinians have left is violence.
Can you explain how you expect them to negotiate with Israel peacefully when Israel has shown that it is not interested in peace by continuing to build illegal settlements in the west bank, effectively killing a two state solution? They can’t peacefully protest, they’d get shot. They can’t vote Israel out, they aren’t citizens of Israel. The only options left for them is violence. And out of the organizations there, the secular ones like the PFLP and DFLP aren’t as powerful as they used to be so Hamas is the only viable one left.
If there was a way for Palestinians to achieve liberation peacefully, that would be awesome for everyone, but I’m struggling to see how that’s possible.
Hamas killed the two-state solution. Israel bent over backwards to try to compromise with and accommodate the Palestinians, which it had no legal obligation to do, and Hamas and its ilk rejected those offers because they didn’t want two states–they wanted one state, sans Jews.
I’m not a fan of what Israel has been doing in the West Bank, but don’t lie to me and act like those actions are why a two-state solution isn’t working. Palestine didn’t want to exist in a world that included Israel.
Do you understand how it makes a 2 state solution physically impossible? That’s Israel’s doing. You can’t have a solution that displaces 700,000 people, so you can’t have a 2 state solution.
Israel has never offered a solution that gave Palestinians a right to return. The people displaced in the Nakba and later, and the people born into refugee camps, deserve this right. Israel’s proposed peace solutions are all garbage and unfair, and it is insane to expect Palestinians to be ok with making huge compromises regarding land that they were cleansed from.
Hamas? Sure. But don’t pretend that the various secular organizations wanted to ethnically cleanse jews from the area, they didn’t. They supported a secular state solution.