I’m voting blue, and you should too
But if it’s a competition for engagement, why did we have to go with the least engaging candidate possible?
Because the system isn’t fixed yet.
Unfortunately, we have to engage in order to fix it. It won’t just fix itself so that we can participate with a clean
egoconscience.So much this. This is a shitty game, but the only way to fix the game, is to play. Keep voting blue to beat the fascist reds, and in primaries, vote with your heart. A strong voter turnout for both will make the red party irrelevant until they move more to the center, while also pushing blue more left.
A union doesn’t get better treatment by continuing to work the machines that mangle them.
I dont have much of a better answer but I’m getting tired of hearing this.
that metaphor doesn’t apply. The only way you change the rules in politics is by participating in politics. Conservatives have been losing pretty hard since Biden won. If they keep trying to push messaging that doesn’t get people to vote for them, then other people will try to take over and try to appeal to those same voters, but with different messaging.
Okay… But let’s walk it out… Say turn out is good enough to beat Trump this time… Biden gets in again… What’s the next step? How do we then get him and the Dems to fix the system? Probably not even that hard… Ranked choice, end dark money, end gerrymandering… The rest will likely sort itself out… So what? Do we call our elected reps and say, okay, this time I really mean it, you fix this dumpster fire or else… Else what?
(Just to keep this from getting derailed… I’m voting for Biden and so should everyone, especially in the swing states.)
But I’ve heard this song before… Over and over… Just vote like you’re told to this time, and then we’ll fix the system later… And like clockwork we’re right back here every 4 years… And god forbid anyone ever point out that we did this exact same dance last time, and we got them in, and shocker of all shockers, they didn’t fucking fix anything about the system. Shit, they didn’t even try.
So show me the Democrat’s plan to fix the system. Or I guess it is already “fixed”… How are they going to unfuck it?
Step one is that people need to show up for more than just presidential elections. The only way to move left at a national level is to show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races and it’s more than just a couple of them here or there. Get more progressives in the kind of offices that can set them up to be governors and senators - those are the people who generally end up as president. There’s no overnight solution, which is what a lot of people seem to expect.
Buuuut voter turnout in non-presidential election years sucks, and it’s even worse outside of midterms. I don’t know how to solve that part. I’ve voted in every single election I could since I turned 18, and I don’t understand the complete lack of engagement. I know how to solve the things that prevent willing voters from doing it, but I don’t know how we fix apathy.
show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races
OK but when PACs go out of their way to support their opponents by shoveling millions into their campaigns… Jamal bowman, an actual progressive, lost to an ancient white establishment dem who was endorsed by Hillary “beat the market” Clinton.
That goes along with apathy, I think. Being an informed voter takes effort, and an unfortunate number of people don’t make it. I knew that was happening and was appalled, and a lot of people on Lemmy knew, but for plenty of voters, they just knew the names and saw some ads and said good enough.
People always say Democrats are worse at messaging than Republicans (though it’s arguably a lot easier to get the message of, “vote for me, I’ll hurt people you hate,” across than it is to communicate actual policies), but I’m not sure progressives are that great at it either. There’s a lot of internal division and impatience with anyone who isn’t immediately on board 100%, and it’s off-putting. I’m not immune to those things by any means, so I understand the impulse, but it’s probably not the best way to attract voters.
I know I often get tired of Bernie’s spiel… Like, we get it, the oligarchy is fucking us all, they’ve bought the government, education should be free, healthcare should be free, the minimum wage should be a living wage, etc etc… but where’s the PLAN? Give me a 6 year plan, state by state, election by election… Where do we focus next? Who are we swapping out for a progressive? State level, federal level, and the DNC itself.
Sort of a catch 22… We need free and fair elections in order to get progressives through primaries, but we need progressives to already be elected to create a free and fair election system.
Right? Can hardly blame apathetic voters. Certainly won’t encourage spreading the belief though. When everyone is doomer pilled is when we officially lose forever.
Okay? So work on the next one. And the next one. And the next one. Get the word out. One failure doesn’t mean the end. Hell, a thousand failures don’t mean the end.
Giving up means the end. If that’s what you want to do, fine. But don’t blame anyone but yourself and your ilk for it when things continue to get shittier.
It goes beyond voter turnout, as well. After the elections over, win or lose, we need to stay engaged. If Biden had to answer for his policy on Isreal in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 we may have an entirely different outcome. At the very least you need to let the status quo die. If you think the DNC is just A O K ‘same as it’s ever been’ please escort your way toward the door. We need the party to turn full progressive then put itself to bed by implementing voting reform.
This is how we save each other from authoritarian oppression, from climate apocalypse, and from violent revolution.
I can only assure you of two things, it’s never been done before and your government doesn’t want it to happen.
There’s also the issue of establishment Dems all but rigging primaries for their anointed candidate.
The only way to move left at a national level is to show the establishment that progressive candidates are winning in local and state races and it’s more than just a couple of them here or there.
I mean, it’s pretty hard to run as a progressive candidate if you’re not running at the federal level. Not only are you working with a subdivision of a subdivision of a subdivision of the country’s population, but there’s not many actionable progressive policies that you can actually enact at the local level, where austerity politics (due to lack of power and federal funding) and NIMBYism are more free to reign supreme. You can’t exactly enact universal healthcare at the local level. Hell, you can barely get it across to house the local homeless and your resources are probably gonna be maxed out as soon as that comes up. Local infrastructure is something that can take years and years for changes to take effect, so even if that’s a pretty controllable thing at the local level, it’s very hard for that to be an actually campaign-able issue. Local elections are also going to have larger disparities between who’s able to communicate their message effectively because they’re going to have larger disparities in terms of funding, which is obviously going to reflect voter engagement very directly.
It’s a much more solid and impenetrable catch-22 than people would generally be led to believe. People would like to just say that we need higher voter turnout for the city water commissioner, or that we need people to run for those positions and other positions where elections are basically a formality, and be done with it, but the issues even at the local level are systemic and pretty heavily entrenched and there are lots of thing that you can’t really make serious progress on without a large level of federal intervention or funding. Those things are worth doing in their own right, sure, and at an even more atomic level, volunteering at a soup kitchen or whatever other actual local work is something that can be rewarding just by itself, right, because it makes you a better person, helps people, etc. But I also wouldn’t expect those things on their own to cause a massive upset or a series of cascading progressive victories, in the same way I would expect random fluctuations in the fabric of the universe to spawn a strawberry rhubarb pie right in front of me, unless the circumstances of the pie were to already be in effect or so on.
I suppose what I am saying is that it’s pretty hard to fix the apathy because the apathy is a sensible response in many respects. At one hand, the apathy is a normal response to seeing that you are adrift in a kind of sea of chaos and noise where you are but one actor that can do basically nothing in the grand scheme. It’s a sensible response when you understand that the things which keep you in that sea of chaos and noise are heavily entrenched and very hard to change. It’s a sensible response when whatever grand narrative you were clutching to in order to make sense of the world has been exposed as totally false and hollow and probably made up by some guy in the 1800s. Apathy is especially a sensible response when you understand all of this, and also want to keep doing what you’ve been doing because it’s really the only thing you know how to do and you’re at odds otherwise with how to survive, and aren’t very risk-taking specifically because you’re in a kind of survival mode. The problem is I think that this is a kind of adverse adaptation, and there are some changes which are necessary to survive in such conditions. Community with other people is one of the things which consistently helps out the most in actual crises, either personal or grand in scale, and community with others is also one of those things that happens to line up precisely with political action.
Which is to say that I think the apathy will probably solve itself, because it’s going to be pretty much either sink or swim, are you in or are you out, and I don’t think people are going to find themselves with the luxury of inaction for very much longer or else they will probably more consistently condemn themselves to a lack of resources out of some sense of pride or just raw antisocial outlooks. But then, people knew smoking were killing them for a really long time, and that never really tapered off too much until places started banning it, so, who knows, maybe we’re all just fucked.
What’s the next step?
The republicans come up with the next boogeyman and the democrats jam some new unpopular shill down our throat “or else we lose democracy” and so on until people stop putting up with it because nothing ever gets better and we do actually lose democracy.
What does “stop putting up with it” look like?
Staying home instead of voting because nothing ever gets better anyway and the republicans get their dictatorship.
Gotcha… Yeah I think that’s basically where we’re at now
Yeah if not we’re way too close to it for comfort.
What’s the next step?
It’s not salvageable on the national level. It’s only going to happen with organization outside of the DNC. Unions, community organizations, and activist groups for boycotts and strikes with a clearly defined political objective.
We could also take over the DNC relatively easily. Every state has its own chapter and they elect their own leadership… Which then elects DNC leadership. And only like 5 people ever vote in those elections.
Or I guess it is already “fixed”
Oh its fixed alright, its a feature, not a bug.
We already have a roadmap for this, thanks to the fascists. The way they took over the Republican party 15 years ago was by aggressively getting involved in the primary process. Once establishment neoliberal Dems start losing their primaries, the rest will get the hint real quick.
Funding? How do we fund a Dem party takeover? GoFundMe? Genuinely asking, Repubs have money to burn, we don’t.
How did Che get funded?
Is this a writing prompt, or a research suggestion, because I genuinely don’t know?
Let’s find out, together?
I’m not sure if party elections are covered by the same finance laws as regular elections… Good question.
The Justice Democrats tried this. They ran into the same problem that all groups face when trying to change the system from within- campaign financing.
Capitalism will not allow a change that contributes to its demise. This needs to be grassroots social movement, outside the system to have any chance of succeeding. Look to New Deal progressivism and reform as a guide.
You would hope… But the only message they seem to have gotten so far is “lean into your corporate
ownersdonors more.”
(Just to keep this from getting derailed… I’m voting for Biden and so should everyone, especially in the swing states.)
But I’ve heard this song before… Over and over… Just vote like you’re told to this time, and then we’ll fix the system later… And like clockwork we’re right back here every 4 years… And god forbid anyone ever point out that we did this exact same dance last time, and we got them in, and shocker of all shockers, they didn’t fucking fix anything about the system. Shit, they didn’t even try.
So show me the Democrat’s plan to fix the system. Or I guess it is already “fixed”… How are they going to unfuck it?
you keep giving them what they want from you so they have no reason to bother fixing it
You don’t get the Dems to fix the system, that’s not the point. They’re not a solution, they’re one step. The problem is we’ve been leaving it to that one step and just magically expecting things to get fixed for us.
Showing up helps, but it’s only the first step. And you have to show up for everything. Not just once every four years, or even every two. You need to show up for every vote. Down to local dog-catcher. Because that change trickles up.
I’m not a strategist, I don’t have all the answers… but I know giving up cause you haven’t seen the change you wanted through minimum effort is fucking stupid. It’s hard. No one said it wouldn’t be. But that’s no reason to decide it’s not worth the effort.
How do we then get him and the Dems to fix the system?
First step is getting Republicans to stop being literal fascists. And that means that they have to lose so many times in a row that they have to rethink the whole party strategy to try getting elected again.
Then, once republicans go back to being just corporate shills, Dems will have to actually push left because the “we’re not Satan” strategy won’t work anymore.
If we’re expecting democrats to fix our broken, two party system, we’re going to be waiting a long time. The left is going to have to work hard and do it ourselves. Democrats are enslaved in a broken system they helped create.
If you’re expecting anyone to fix a system for you while you sit on your ass, you’re in for a world of disappointment.
This isn’t a fix, it’s one step. You need to do a hell of a lot more than show up once or twice a year to get things fixed. And it takes more than just you. That’s what the whole post is about. People don’t show up because they feel it’s impossible to change.
In no small part because of doom-sayers like yourself who constantly keep saying that “if you do it that way you’re bound to fail, so don’t even try”.
Democrats are a stop-gap. I’m not saying they’re not. But if you remove that stop gap the entire system floods. If you have a better way to staunch the flow, I’d love to hear it. But all I hear from your type is “But I put in the bare minimum possible effort and it didn’t change things, so I’m going to stop trying at all”.
Whoa, I didn’t say not to try! I’m saying the opposite! We should never stop fighting to make things better.
You know you get to choose who the Democrats are, right? You can get involved in the party and vote for the leadership of the DNC and your local and state chapters. You can vote in the primaries. Hell, you can run for office yourself.
I have participated for over two decades in all ways possible, I can’t support any part of this system with a good conscience anymore. We can do something better, the US constitution and neoliberal capitalism isn’t the ultimate attainment of human progress.
the US constitution and neoliberal capitalism isn’t the ultimate attainment of human progress
That’s why the pyramid is unfinished.
We can do something better
Not if you refuse to participate.
Political systems have collapsed countless times in history. When I say something better I mean something outside of this corrupted, illegitimate system that rewards only the wealthy, a structure which will kill us all if we don’t work against it.
Political systems have collapsed countless times in history.
Due to not enough people voting? Or due to violent revolutions? Because the first one doesn’t have a great track record, as far as I know.
so that we can participate in it with a clean
egoconscience.Thank you for this.
This is very true.
Preach
My question still is why does it feel like the democratic party continues to try to mostly target ‘undecided’ voters. Which I’m still not convinced actually exist in any significant numbers. But I know tons and tons and tons of theoretically democrat voters that just don’t bother to actually vote.
Feels like 80% of the messaging is aimed at somehow flipping a red voter blue instead of actually capitalizing on the blue voters they actually have.
Whereas all I see Republicans do is advertise to their own base. I basically never see them legitimately try to flip a blue voter. They seem to correctly recognize that’s a lost cause, so they spend most of their effort on energizing their voter base.
Because it’s not just a popularity contest. I mean, it is, but you also need money to advertise yourself to an entire country.
Advertising is expensive when you have to pay for it, instead of doing stupid or evil stuff all the time like certain famous Republicans.
So, who has money, and how do you convince them to give you money? This is where the intersection between who we want and who we get lies.
Because no one in their right mind would run
Because we did the same thing in 2016, and no one learned anything from those mistakes.
☝️
Dunno, I don’t think voting for LDPR is better than voting for CPRF. Wait, you mean american blue?
It’s much easier to get 65% turnout when it’s a candidate we can get excited about.
You might notice there are a ton of candidates on your ballot who aren’t running for president
Oh, I got it. Good job. Took me a while though, I think I have Covid… again. Yes, it’s still out there.
Change starts from the bottom, not the top.
Young people aren’t voting = political parties seeing no reason to appeal to them.
Older generations vote, so politicians who appeal to older generations get promoted over ones who might otherwise have broad appeal.
Don’t complain about there being nothing but geriatric candidates if you’re only engaging in National level races and not taking part in local, regional and state elections that are spring boards for the younger politicians to rise up the ranks to get onto the national level.
You want to see change? Vote. In every election you’re eligible to vote in. And get all your friends and co-workers to do the same. Doesn’t matter if it’s for city council, school board or senate races. Just fucking vote.
when the dem party ran a candidate that young people liked, we went out and voted for him. so it’s not the young people’s fault that they don’t vote, it’s that the party doesn’t care enough to put forward a candidate that young people actually can get behind.
Not to defend dems strategy but look at 2010 for a prime example of what my post above was talking about. ACA is exactly what young voters wanted, what dems pushed for in 2008 and was exactly what GOP ran against in 2010. And in 2010, young voters didn’t show up, so all the congressional members who pushed it through got unseated by conservatives eager to rip it apart and stonewall anything else Obama did.
So yes, my point stands. It’s because young voters do not vote, especially not in midterm years between presidential elections that we aren’t getting politicians who appeal to the under 50-60 block. Because even when Dems go all out and give them everything they want, they still don’t show up at the polls to maintain momentum, and Dems lose a ton of ground. So can you blame them for making the choice between getting once in a generation power plays to change the status quo then go right back to letting GOP rip everything apart piecemeal and load the courts with conservative judges, or pick safer bet candidates who appeal to the ones who regularly turn out to vote even if progress only comes in bite sized changes they can slip through with aid of moderates and independents?
The math is there, you just have to look at the entire equation. GET OUT AND VOTE. EVERY ELECTION.
ACA is exactly what young voters wanted
Young voters wanted rebranded RomneyCare?
ACA is exactly what young voters wanted, what dems pushed for in 2008
Absolute nonsense. Young people wanted universal healthcare, not new tax bureaucracy to deal with. Young people wanted something akin to M4A, but instead got RomneyCare
Joe Leiberman
Rotating villain
Senate pissed away their majority and thought that people wouldnt notice the stone-walling and nuclear option and other bullshit shenanigans that MAJORITY elected officials were letting Republizards get away with. Liebermann and other DINOs were allowed to run free and destroy the MAJORITY vote.
Guess why the 2nd-term of Obama DID NOT GET THE SUPER MAJORITY? FAILED TO KEEP PROMISES.
Biden was the Veep responsible to ensure that Senate and the House did their job.
Geriatric Dog Pony Soldier Biden screwed around during the Obama Presidency and now doing worse.
Biden could nominate Bernie, dude is older than any one else. AND STILL THE DEMS WILL WIN THIS 2024!
@@@@$##$&#%#%&#*$%&#%%(*&%
I feel worse than just cursing at the 'Murican stupidity on display. Hate this crap. You cannot blame voters when your candidate is brain-dead. So get serious or get out.
Drumpf is elected because of all the lies he tells and not because he is competent. He is the “Set everything on Fire and watch it all Burn down” candidate. IF YOU CANNOT BEAT THIS DUMB DEADBEAT YOU ARE NOT WORTH ANYTHING.
During the Drumpf Rule, Republizards silently pass every rule-breaking garbage and rig every system beyond breaking-point and create an unfixable situation everywhere again.
Dem Candidate has to :
-
Inspire voters
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Unbreak all the broken systems since the time of Jimmy Carter.
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Implement new systems that are robust and unbreakable.
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Imprison every rule-breaking politician regardless of party or affiliation.
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Simplify everything for anyone earning below 1 MILLION USD.
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Tax 90% everything for anyone earning above 1 BILLION USD.
You need a very brave candidate. Bernie will do it. Biden is a zombie without even the brainworm.
I hear ya. I so wish we were in a better spot.
But here we are with ~14 weeks left.
Even IF they let him near a primary, even if he won primary and general, and had a majority of both houses… Do you think every Dem would vote with him? Even if they wanted to?
-
Not really? The highest turnout for under 25s over the last 58 years was… in 2020 (~50%), when it was literally the same matchup . And that’s still significantly lower than other age groups (62% 25-44, 71% 45+).
There was a small bump in 2008 (assuming you mean Obama), up to 49%. But in 2004 when John Kerry was the candidate the turnout was about 47% so not like. A huge change. And nobody remembers John Kerry.
Looking across the pond, in 2019 when Corbyn was head of the labor party and ran on a lot of lovely progressive issues, the turnout under 24s (they use slightly different brackets) was… Just over 50%
It kinda seems like young people just don’t vote at very high rates, period. So it doesn’t make a ton of sense to focus on them over other groups if you actually want to get elected and hold power.
Yes but they post more on online!?!?
Voting - not as much no. Many people are scared by it. Well, apprehensive, maybe. Which is understandable.
Young people aren’t voting = political parties seeing no reason to appeal to them.
Older generations vote, so politicians who appeal to older generations get promoted over ones who might otherwise have broad appeal.
And that works great until the old farts start dying and the young people the party spent so long alienating don’t trust them for some fucking reason.
No, then change simply starts automatically as the party appeals to the remaining voters. There’s not some special dynamic happening there, it’s just that simple: politicians want power, they’re going to do whatever gives them the most power.
So the fun thing is that you get older every year. So does everyone around you. What seems to actually happen is that as younger voters age they realize that they should actually vote* – in 2000 32% of the 18-24 bracket voted. By 2020 those people are at the upper end of the 25-44 bracket [the census has wonky ranges], and 55% of them voted.
This trend has been going on back as far as there is data. There is no ‘until’.
And if those numbers seem really low to you - yeah they are. For comparison about 70% of people 64+ have voted every presidential election year, back to like the 80s. And it’s even worse for midterm years! In 2022 people 64+ voted at about a 2.5:1 rate to people under 25.
*in fairness there’s also the factor that as people age they tend to have more stable lives, more ability to take time off, etc. And there are states that DO make voting hard on purpose (notably all governed by the same party). Reasons why supporting early voting, mail in, mandatory time off, etc. Are all also very important. But in much of the US it’s not particularly difficult and people still don’t do it.
voting, as it currently is, is a top down system, not a bottom up one
Bullshit. The primaries decide it all.
Well if you crush the Republican party midterms become a free for all and real progressives can be elected?
I’d agree but when the other candidate is Trump the excitement should be at max level for you, or I’ll have to think you have a secret agenda.
people have short attention spans. and the media circus isn’t helping Biden’s cause. I’ll hold my nose this time and vote biden, just like i did with hillary, but not everyone will do that. a lot of people are going to skip voting, and you shouldn’t blame them, you should blame the democratic party for not putting forward the best candidate for the job.
People are dumb, people are uneducated, people have short attention spans, people are undecided, but people also don’t know if they should vote in the face of a realistic takeover of the US by a fascist movement scenario. Maybe it’s time we take away democracy from people who are actively disengaging from it. Once Trump is president again, it will be too late. End him and everybody who follows him.
People are dumb, people are uneducated, people have short attention spans, people are undecided, but people also don’t know if they should vote in the face of a realistic takeover of the US by a fascist movement scenario. Maybe it’s time we take away democracy from people who are actively disengaging from it. Once Trump is president again, it will be too late. End him and everybody who follows him.
The quiet part is a bit loud in this one my blue conservative “ally”.
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are you saying that the solution to people not being excited about voting for biden is to disenfranchise large swaths of voters?
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If that were true, why didn’t it end with Sarah Palin? Michelle Bachman? Newt? Boehner ?
Its not secret. I want to dissolve the two party system and force the legacy political parties to compete in a free market of ideas. If they arent competitive because their muscles have weakened from long use of First Past The Post voting as a crutch… that’s on them.
Ok either do that before this years election, or just shut up and do your duty
You mocked opposition to genocide elsewhere in this thread.
Did Nick Fuentes tell you to reply that?
who is he? some genocide-opposer who puppeteers all genocide-opposer?
A guy that was mentioned in the news for reasons.
His record is great, and the alternative is the end of democracy.
What more do you want
His record is great
i’m want to assume that you mean his record for the last 3 years because the last 51 years has been very bad; but even those 3 years were hit and miss.
but then again, if you only look at the last 3 years of his life, kissinger was a pretty good guy too.
the best thing biden has going for him is that he’s not trump. and that’s not sustainable.
I doubt he’s going to be trump anytime soon, though
Uh, no. No he wasn’t.
how many atrocities did kissinger commit between 2019 and 2023?
I’ve heard this before. What do you people mean when you say “end of democracy”?
He’s on record as talking about not being restricted to a third term. SCOTUS has ruled that he can do no wrong, specifically in the context of him being brought to trial for asking for the vote to be rigged in his favour, but also for inciting armed insurrection against the United States government in order to keep him in power after the rules said he should go. He has talked, out loud, about being a dictator on day one and said that he should be allowed to order the death of people who oppose him. You could argue that Russia is a democracy, but the kind of “democracy” where political opponents are murdered and vote counts are changed in favour of the leader are better called dictatorships.
The thinking is that Trump will do something for the republicans to remain in power permanently.
Not clear what that something is.
Last time he was in a position of power, he tried to organize a coup against the US government. It’s not a stretch to think that might be his starting point.
I’m stunned how people just bloop right over that
Extreme gerrymandering
RepubliQan staffed voting approval boards that change the outcome
Blatantly unconstitutional laws to prevent minorities from voting (even more than they have now)
Troops at the polls
Some of these are already passed in red states.
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I dunno… someone that doesn’t make up words like “goodest”?
Fantastigasmical?
The difference is that you made that word up on purpose…
Give me a fucking break. You have to point to some random website to even try to defend this and even that says that it’s not really a word but language is fluid?
You’re only proving the point more.
Here, have a refreshing beverage.
Be “excited” about the prospect of trump.
Edit: /s or whatever. Vote blue or get trump.
you will eat your shit sandwich and you will like it.
Da, correkt response.
Those % are very much bullshit but I support the message. Vote out the fascist party.
Don’t let the bullshit percentages distract you from the fact that in 1998, the Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell, and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer’s table. Vote. 🗳️
That was way too short, not voting and it’s all your fault
Sorry, I just found out about Agenda47 so I’m a little off.
I’m not really understand the “70%” part. Can’t they just run again next election? Why would they be “out”?
In other words, if 70% of the population consistently voted, they would have 0 chance
Because when enough people votes for something that is not the republican party, the balance of power can change and they “risk” getting to third place, where they are not relevant anymore.
It’s an exaggeration. They probably mean “the current Republican Party” won’t exist anymore, because they’ll have to restructure their whole party line if they want to appeal to more voters.
We are assuming they would die of shame.
this is unlikely because they’re incapable of feeling shame
Hahahaha oh man, imagine if that were even remotely possible
Yeah had to go validate them
They did not validate
My source? I made it the fuck up
If the Republicans win this one, you won’t have to worry about voting ever again.
Biden: Who cares about turnout, I have to capture the moderates! All 5 of them!
Republicans won in 2016 with 60.1% turnout, in 2004 with 60.1% turnout, in 2000 with 54.2% turnout
Democrats won in 1996 with 51.7% turnout
i support the message, but if this is true why is the dem party hell bent on keeping the candidate who isn’t actually engaging his base enough to make them want to go out and vote? If biden wins, I’ll be surprised. Happy, of course, but surprised nonetheless.
The wealthy donate to both parties
If Dems ran a candidate voters want. They’d get majorities in both houses, not long till super majorities.
And then there’s no excuse not to do what voters want.
Moderate Dems want to win, but only by so much they’re not able to do anything in office.
Was looking for this comment so I didn’t have to type it out. It’s never about winning for Democrats because then they’d have to actually do what they said they would. It’s much more convenient to have the Republicans blocking everything they do while they’re in power so they can then demonize them.
They bet on themselves to win, but not cover the spread…
I don’t know why people don’t see it after 2020.
Biden promised to pass the platform thru a R Senate, that was the entire reason he gave for being the nominee, working with republicans . Then the GA runoffs came up and we might get 50.
So he said with 50 D senators, he could pass the party platform. Which wasnt what he just said, but the whole country still got behind it and we got 50 D senators.
Then like a week into office, he flat out said anyone who thought 50 D senators was enough to do anything was naive and didn’t know what they’re talking about. Then he even said that trying to change a senators mind was a waste of time so he wouldn’t bother trying…
And here we are, four years later, acting like we dont know why Biden is unpopular.
And Obama was the same way. Ran on big structural change (although somewhat vapid in content), then the first thing he does is bail out the banks with taxpayer money. Then spends 8 years complaining about McConnell. His major achievement was passing a minor healthcare package that basically became a Republican talking point.
It’s honestly a well-oiled machine, and it has been since Truman.
If Dems ran a candidate voters want
Joe Biden won the democratic primaries in 2020. He may not be what most voters wanted, but he was the least objectionable candidate for many people. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Michael Bloomberg, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar and Tulsi Gabbard all ran, and most didn’t win a single state.
Who is this mysterious candidate that “voters want” who chose not to run?
The 2020 primaries should have been a wake-up call to a lot of people that what they thought voters wanted wasn’t actually true. There are a lot of socially conservative democratic voters out there.
Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Michael Bloomberg, Pete Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar and Tulsi Gabbard all ran, and most didn’t win a single state.
Only 4 fucking states had their primaries before most of those names were told to drop by the party and Biden only won 1 of them!
Because they are shit at engagement, as proven since 1984
Because they prefer electing republicans to winning if the cost of winning would be compromising even a fraction of an inch with the left
Change, historically speaking, has taken a long time. Less so now.
Obama got people excited in 2008
Controlled opposition, so the other side doesn’t go to far from center?
They are both right wing parties and both entrenched in capitalism and corporations and donation money.
The OP is true because more people are in the middle like a bell curve and the D is slightly right, while R is far right. So the more people you add the more likely they are to vote D.
Most people want to think they’re in the center. But the second you dangle M4A, universal education, and the possibility of lower rents in front of them they love it. Not realizing that those aren’t center positions.
Yeah, but for some reason a lot of people also don’t want other people to benefit more than them, even if that person has a lot less than them. It’s wild. Something, something, bootstraps.
Something something right-wing propaganda
how can we energize left leaning people to vote for more left leaning parties? maybe not this election cycle, but we might be able to push further left if we can get some green candidates in the house next time.
In a first-past-the-post system, a third party candidate only ends up taking votes from the mainstream candidate closest to their position. Even if you could somehow get a third-party candidate to be the most popular candidate, you’d have to convince the democratic candidate to drop out or they’d be splitting the left-of-center vote. And, the democrats have a vested interest in keeping third-party candidates out, so they almost certainly wouldn’t do that.
That is the MUCH better question everyone should be talking about, not arguing over Biden. We’re here, Biden is our only option, accept that and let’s talk about 4 years from now and start the movement for that now, not at the last minute.
I think making sure more people vote in their local elections, raising awareness of the actual POLICIES and the actual VOTING records of the candidates. Cut past all the talk and lies and BS. Help people look at what bills are out there and who is voting for what and vote for their desired candidates from that. Also getting more people to the primary votes. If we wanted Biden out then the primary vote was the time to do that, we could have flooded the polls for someone else back then. We could also have some campaigns or petitions or whatever to make known how people feel about issues and hopefully drive some change that way.
I am so tired of hearing people online like “I did nothing for 4 years and I’m mad at Biden for a genocide being done by another country on the other side of the planet so I’m not gonna vote for him now and I don’t care if that lets Trump win, it’s Biden’s fault.”
That is insane logic.
Biden’s been doing fine. I never gave a shit how he “appeared” in televised debates.
The point is that if the post is true moving to the left would motivate more people to vote instead of the current system where the left does not have a real voice in American politics …
if this is true why is the dem party hell bent on keeping the candidate who isn’t actually engaging his base enough to make them want to go out and vote?
He’s the only one that can beat Trump. But he can only beat Trump if everyone in the country turns out and votes for him.
Also, nobody look at how Republican voter participation changed between 2016 and 2020
at this point, he is. but he didn’t have to be the candidate. we were forcefed biden and not given another choice.
Replacing First Past The Post voting with a more representative electoral system such as Ranked Choice voting would allow more then 2 political parties to be viable with no spoiler effect.
This would increase engagement as more people would be represented by the extra parties. This would increase voter turnout and… going off of your own post… would increase the number of voters for the democratic party.
More democracy, more representation in government, more democratic voters. A win win win for the people of the USA and the DNC.
Since the electoral system is managed at the state level, one must wonder why the democrats haven’t implemented this easy win mode in the states they control. It’s clear democrats understand the faults of First Past The Post voting. Just talk to any one of them about voting third party and they will go on and on about how its a wasted vote. Well if you understand the flaws of the voting system so well, why haven’t you done anything to fix the problem? For longer then I’ve been alive…
How would the republicans prevent this reform if they don’t control these blue states? Who is standing in the way of electoral reform in these democratic strong holds?
If you believe the Republicans are an existential threat, you should be on board with using every tool available to prevent that right? That means passing electoral reform in your state ASAP. We should be asking our representatives why they aren’t using every tool at their disposal to defeat the republicans.
This isn’t really true in this election. Usual caveats, I’m voting blue and all that.
But likely voter polls favor Biden more than registered voters. There’s straight up not a linear regression of people voting to democratic winners like this presents. It’s bad statistics.
People who don’t pay attention to politics at all are more likely to vote for Trump. I think that makes a lot of sense. People who pay attention aren’t as likely to vote for him as people who don’t really follow.
It’s true. My wife works in a bakery and her coworkers said they will likely vote for trump, and they didn’t know anything about project 2025.
Project 2025 is really only in recent headlines. Those people have at least 8 years of info to work with. If they say they’re not aware of how shitty Trump is then they’re just as shitty as he is because they’re clearly lying to save face.
It is really only in recent headlines, but anyone who’s been paying attention has known about it since last year.
If they say they’re not aware of how shitty Trump is then they’re just as shitty as he is because they’re clearly lying to save face.
Or my guess is that they’re just really, really that gullible.
Trump has never hidden how shitty he is. Whoever supports him must be fine with it. I don’t think “gullible” works as an excuse.
I’m not saying it’s an excuse, but the people in question are supporters of women’s rights and LGBTQ+ (amongst other things), but they don’t believe that trump is a threat in that manner.
Humans can be pretty stupid… Yes, I’m sure most of his supporters are actually approving of his shittiness, but I also think that some people are easily misled, especially if they don’t pay attention to the news or only get their news from one source.
Uhoh! Someone is below the 10,000 word caveat requirement! That makes you a secret russian Republican terrorist!
At this point I vote just to say that I did. I don’t expect voting is the way that America is going to fix its problems. We’re voting in a two-party system where both sides do everything in their power to maintain the status quo. We simply do not have a seat at the table.
Why is that? Do dems simply have less voter engagement or is this a split on age lines? Really interesting statistics though!
Gerrymandering, voter ID, challenging voter registrations, disenfranchising felons, opposing mail-in voting, anonymous mailers threatening to arrest voters, closing polling stations in Democratic-leaning areas, challenging voters at the polls to gridlock the polling places, making the handing out of water to people waiting to vote (in red states - where it’s hot) illegal.
All the well-known cheating tactics of republiQans. Others are less well known. That’s one of the problems.
Also democrats running shit candidates.
Democracy is a responsibility, not a romance. I want Bernie, but I’m voting, donating, and volunteering for Biden or (please) whoever the Democratic Nominee is. The point is to continually improve things…
It’s a quid pro quo. If a candidate cannot credibly tell someone they will materially improve their life enough to be worth missing a day of work, they’re not gonna get their vote.
Exactly, it’s a responsibility.
… So why are you giving the DNC a pass on choking at the plate, repeatedly?
Note: No one has said to not vote blue. This is a discussion about increasing voter turnout, not blaming people for not wanting to engage with a broken system.
What do you consider “giving the DNC a pass” if you’re not saying don’t vote blue? No one has said they’re perfect, no one has said they’re the best we’ll ever have… they’re just saying it’s the best chance to improve things.
Just because they’re not saying what you want them to say doesn’t mean they’re giving the DNC a pass.
Democrats fall in love. Republicans fall in line.
Assuming the people here are being genuine, the people replying to you show how true it is.
If we absolutely destroyed the Republican party the Overton window would move left leaving the Dems as the right wing party and opening the door for others. But they can’t see the long term view.
My view is that we vote as far left as feasible, keep getting involved in primaries, keep being engaged, and once we stomp out the more dangerous threat we can duke it out. But we all think we know best and I can’t make anyone else take my view.
This cannot be emphasized enough.
Even AOC was not their choice, she did it herself and beat the Dem choice.
Not everyone is a top candidate. That’s why she stands out. Not everyone is amazing. Vote anyway. Vote and then call up your representative if they suck.
Even if they don’t suck. Call them up and let them know.
Ok sure. If you have the time. Usually people don’t comment if things are going ok.
AOC? The same AOC that voted to prevent the rail union workers from striking?
Not the point.
She was a random no name dem at the time who knocked on doors and undercut the old fart dem incumbent for her district.
The point is that any able bodied motivated individual with the charisma who also fits the requirements for the role, say, even a bartender, can oust the old farts in office.
Republicans voters are much better at voting for their Handmaiden’s Tale candidates. Meanwhile, Democrats are told that anyone to the left of Eisenhower “isn’t electable” so we just have to swallow right-wingers like Biden and Hillary.
EDIT: I’m saying that Republican voters don’t care who’s “electable,” so they get what they want. We should try the same.
There is no shittier candidate than Trump. The there is MTG, Gaetz, Boebert, and so many others. The shittiest candidates I have ever seen.
That’s a solid ranking. Trump IS worse than Gaetz and MTG.
And he’s damn near as old as Biden. You think he’s not sundowning a little too when he starts rambling about sharks and shit?
And this is exactly why we never get the turnout needed to trounce the Republicans. Less shitty matters to someone who shows up at the polls. It’s not a great motivator to get people to the polls.
I mean yeah trump is worse but the last good candidate the democrats had was Bernie, and that didn’t go well. I’ll vote blue no matter who but you gotta admit there’s been a dearth of good candidates.
The presidential election isn’t the only election. And, in fact, it’s not even close to the only important one. Most policy is made in legislation, the executive puts policy in motion and can direct it… but they don’t create laws.
Even the actions they do take have congressional oversight. Vote for more than just President and you might actually see change.
Don’t worry I do and have been my whole adulthood.
But it’s not a binary thing…
Did you look at the post you’re commenting on?
More engagement is always better
So we should never settle for “better than a Republican”.
That works a hell of a lot better at the lower levels of representation. State and local races are where those “not blue (or red)” candidates have the best (and in most cases, only) chance of getting elected.
But that only happens if you show up. If all you do is bitch and moan about presidents and only vote once every four years… nothing will ever change. We’ll always just have Biden or Trump. Because you’ve shown that that’s all that matters to you.
We’ll always just have Biden or Trump. Because you’ve shown that that’s all that matters to you.
Holy shit. I though Miss Cleo died!
What’s the lottery numbers for next week den?
I don’t do lottery numbers.
I can however predict that you’ll continue to cherry pick statements to support your failing ideology of “fuck all y’all” to all our eventual downfall cause you can’t stomach things not being absolutely perfect with little to no effort on your part.
Dude I got a fucking email that was a trump ad and it just had a ‘random’ quote at the bottom. It was that fucking sleeping with the fishes quote. The ad was straight up threatening me to vote for Trump or else.
I think this chart, which I hope shows up, kind of gets to the point. Both reds pretty much ALWAYS vote. The conservative blues also always vote. That pretty much just leaves the progressive blues that need to be convinced to show up… But if they do show up, they vote blue.
Also notice that even if the Biden’s of the party could in fact get every centrist Republican to switch over and vote for them (and the biggest swing they actually achieved in these years was only a few percent) it still wouldn’t compare to the votes they’d get if they’d just embrace progressives and let the conservatives go.
That pretty much just leaves the progressive blues that need to be convinced to show up… But if they do show up, they vote blue.
not running shitty candidates with thoroughly fucked up voting/support history would be a great way to convince progressives to show up; the democrats had that with bernie and denied him 2x, so it doesn’t seem realistic that the democrats would ever change.
and it turns into a chicken and egg problem because democrats needs progressives to show up; but progressives won’t show up because democrats keep punching left.
Yeah… The more I think about it, the more I believe the first step is going to have to be to take over the DNC and fill it with progressives. No more supporting shitty conservatives to try and scrape a couple percent off the red column while shitting on the left.
All it takes is for the Democrat Party to move a bit to the Left or alternatively as this post requests *checks notes* 22 million voters to move to the Right and vote for people such as the current *checks notes* unwavering supporter of a ethno-Fascist regime and ideology currently committing a Genocide which according to a study publish in the Lancet is already estimated to have killed over 180 thousand people, a large fraction of which are children.
It’s not as if the Democrat Party is getting much in the way of votes from their Right, so one has to wonder why exactly is the DNC doing all it can to stop the easy solution of the party having leaders who actually act the suppose Left-of-Center values of the party.
Are you suggesting they endanger profit?
/r/creepyasterisks
who cares what they actually do? they say they’re democrats so that means they’re the good guys. as long as we vote for the person who isn’t orange man, we win! it’s that simple
as long as we vote for the person who isn’t orange man,
Have you seen Biden lately?
They’re literally both orange now…
https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-is-getting-more-orange-2024-7
Clowns are fully represented by the two party system.
The Jersey Shore has never felt more heard…
Seriously… What a fucking joke of a country we are.
The people that get full representation are: ultra wealthy, fascist racists, literal clowns.
Everyone else is suffering “taxation without representation” again lol
Again?
I think we had some representation in the past. We used to get things like the voting rights act to actually protect people. Now we just reverse all the things people like us fought for.
I’m seeing it differently. Those were what scraps controlling interests tossed us to keep themselves in control. Lincoln did not write the emancipation proclamation because he was an abolitionist, and he said so. A chicken in every pot was not Roosevelt’s starting position. So these huge philanthropy orgs started by the corporate overlords, as well. Bare bones were better than nothing, but didn’t keep us from starving. Hushpuppies filled a gnawing emptiness, but didn’t nourish us. Every slight gain we made was hard fought, and it was the bare minimum the controlling interests felt they needed to concede to retain control. We grew complacent, because our bellies are filled with garbage and we’re still overworked, under-healthy, undereducated. They want us smart enough to understand and follow orders, not smart enough to question them; healthy enough to keep slaving for them, not claim real time for families, rest , recreation, let alone revolt. And they’ve been slowly testing our breaking point, and now they’re messing with entertainment (not art by a stretch). We like Bart and American Dad and Bob’s Burgers. They are not commiserating or laughing with us. They’re laughing at us, all the way to their banks.
D: but how am I supposed to know who to vote for if politicians aren’t properly color-coded???
lmao
“There isn’t a Republican party anymore” is a ludicrous thought. You really think all these conservatives are going to roll over and let Democrats actually win like that?
Conservative Christians are indoctrinated very deeply and reinforce that strongly in social settings. You can change perspectives over time, but they ain’t gonna watch 70% of the population vote in a swarm of Democrats without screaming “fraud”
The fact thay the republicans are always on the losing side of history on purpose kinda shows that they’re not really a legitimate party that actually works for the people. They shouldn’t even be in the discussion but they lie, cheat, and steal their way to more power than they deserve. Conservatives will complain because they’ve been shown, however wrongly, that they have a lot of support which feeds into a cycle that eventually ends up where we are today where the far right is gaining huge amounts of power in places it doesn’t deserve and plants itself down as legitimate enough that they keep pulling in fools to elect their own doom.
Basically what I’m saying is too fucking bad for them, reality’s a bitch when you’re evil and/or stupid but that’s just too fucking bad for them. And if they want to threaten or intimidate people that’s called domestic terrorism. Boo-fucking-hoo.
The fact thay the republicans are always on the losing side of history on purpose kinda shows that they’re not really a legitimate party that actually works for the people
Civil War. Cold War. etc.
They can scream all they want, it won’t get them elected.
The post is exaggerating, but it’s true that after one huge loss (or even a series of losses in a row), the Republican Party will have to reform itself to appeal more to moderates (aka non-fascist right-wing voters).
how about this, we get 80% of the country, the disenfranchised non-voters and vote for an actually decent third party and destroy them both
Well for starters we would need to actually have a decent third party that’s worth voting for
Good. I would also like a pony.
is the Democratic strategy for engagement to respond with cynicism and low bars?
Left-leaning but still feel that internet troll down in your loins? Become a True Bluetm member today! Just have to make up a completely false meme and decry anyone in the comments who has another opinion on politics!
If your other opinion is “don’t vote for Democrats” yes, I decry thee.
Always has been when it’s critical of them
Unlike . . . who
Is that your reasoning for punching left?
No
Excellent rebuttal
It’s the Democratic strategy to not be a fool whenever possible. Or, y’know, it should be.
First of all 80% of the country is irrelevant because only voters vote. Babies and non-registered people can’t vote. So 80% of them are pretty useless in an election. So far so good?
Secondly, if you can engage non-voters into voting you’re an unhailed supergenius who has figured out what centuries of political hacks have not. Please explain how to achieve this power. And if your first thought is something that’s already been tried, please move to the line of political hacks who have not figured it out.
Thirdly no third parties are “actually decent” unless you want to define that such that it fits your favorite third party - because any definition of a ‘decent’ third party is one that can win, and none of them can win. (Why not make Star Trek a third party, that way when we win the election we all get to explore space and have replicators and what not. Oh because it’s entirely fictional, right. And so are the presidential administrations of any third party right now)
If you’re talking about 2028 or beyond, sure, what’s your pitch? Because if “progressives” want to sit around for four more years doing nothing and then bitch again about how unprogressive the Democrats are - welcome to the world of tomorrow - today!
If you want to get super high and imagine a beautiful outpouring of people to the polls - feel free. It’s not like it hasn’t been done. But to actually win the one coming up in roughtly 14 weeks you’re going to need to rush to get that 80% number. You’ll need work from thousands of unpaid volunteers, hundreds of millions of dollars for infrastructure, promotions, and operations, and an electable human or two.
Or, if you prefer to wistfully whinge that Democrats aren’t progressive enough and not vote for them, you can watch everything burn more. Is that a strategy for voter engagement? No. It’s reality. Make a more perfect union, but to do that you have to vote. Voting for a party that has zero chance is dumb.
Babies and non-registered people can’t vote. So 80% of them are pretty useless in an election. So far so good?
How are you this dense lol. Peak DNC brain here
But to actually win the one coming up in roughtly 14 weeks you’re going to need to rush to get that 80% number. You’ll need work from thousands of unpaid volunteers, hundreds of millions of dollars for infrastructure, promotions, and operations, and an electable human or two.
This is as fictional as Star Trek. What would be very possible is for the Democratic party to replace their candidate; while the centrists myopically claim there’s no time for it, data from every other country in the world proves that you can do that in under 100 days. Moreover, it would serve all the Democrats’ purposes: it would build an inspiring narrative about them “moving mountains” to ensure they serve the people.
Unfortunately, we on the outside can’t do much besides push on the DNC to act in our interests (speaking for myself - I don’t know how many Dem fundraisers you can afford to attend). But you’re lying to yourself if you think you only need me for my vote: you need boots on the ground. I’ve canvassed every year to get the vote out for my state reps and fucking coroner. Am I going to do that this year?
This is as fictional as Star Trek.
Well, yes.
What would be very possible is for the Democratic party to replace their candidate;
Not if the candidate doesn’t want to be replaced.
while the centrists myopically claim there’s no time for it, data from every other country in the world proves that you can do that in under 100 days.
If the US was like every other country we wouldn’t have this electoral college nonsense.
The ponies will be free, and the toothbrushing mandatory.
The voter turnout according to the VEP metric was 66.9% in 2020 and yet Dems don’t have majority in senate so this meme is already wrong.
